When Do I Get My Frigging Spells?
Recently I spent a great deal of time reading about the attacks on gaming that have come over the years. Role-playing has been vilified as both 'evil' and 'Satanic', and is supposedly the cause of many suicides. All of us know that gaming frequently garners a lot of negative attention, but it would seem that few of us know specifically who is instigating these attacks.
Recently I spent a great deal of time reading about the attacks on gaming that have come over the years. Role-playing has been vilified as both 'evil' and 'Satanic', and is supposedly the cause of many suicides. All of us know that gaming frequently garners a lot of negative attention, but it would seem that few of us know specifically who is instigating these attacks. Nor do many of us seem to know that there are actually organizations and individuals out there defending us. I know that last week I didn't know either.
When I read about BADD in particular I was horrified. Its history, in a nutshell, is that Pat Pulling's son Bink committed suicide using her loaded gun. He was depressed and showed many signs of impending suicide, but Pat chose to ignore them and found a better source to blame than herself. It would seem that Bink's gifted and talented teacher used D&D as a way to teach his students, and that Pat became aware of this.
She claimed that the teacher had cast a curse on her son, and that was his reason for suicide. Never mind that all the other participants in the game denied this vehemently. Never mind the fact that Bink had many other problems. Never mind the fact that her case against the teacher was laughed out of court. Pat was convinced that D&D caused her son's death, and she decided that someone had to pay.
So Pat formed Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons. The organization's stated goal was to educate people about the inherent dangers (to their souls) of role-playing. This included such tactics as falsifying news articles, lying in court, and other illegal BS. All done to protect us from the evil that is role-playing. I could go on and on about all of the messed up things that this woman has done, and how they have caused grief for thousands of people like us. But fortunately I don't have to. Michael Stackpole already did.
For those not familiar with Mr. Stackpole - he almost single-handedly created the Battletech universe with his novels, wrote numerous Star Wars novels, and created game supplements for about every game out there. In 1990 he was commissioned by GAMA to create the Pulling report. I highly recommend reading it as it provides many of the facts that I am using in this article.
In it he debunks nearly all of Pat Pulling's claims, and exposes her for the fraud that she is. The article also details a number of the very frightening activities she was involved in. I shudder when I think of the 'Satanic Gamer' profile that she distributed to thousands of police officers over the years.
Of course, even though BADD is a thing of the past, the damage has been done. A great many people now think of role-playing as evil, and this stereotype is being constantly reinforced by the fundamentalist Christians. Here are some articles if you want to see what they are saying about us:
- Straight Talk On D&D
- Dark Dungeons (my favorite)
- D&D - Concerns for the Christian
- The FAQ Against AD&D
There are others I have run across, but these are my favorites. I love the overall message. I mean, using the logic I see in these articles almost anyone or anything can be proven to be Satanic. If you don't believe them, then you are either naive or part of the global conspiracy.
My overall problem, and the point of this essay, is that I am tired of catching flak for my hobbies. But at the same time I understand why fundamentalist Christians and the media at large say what they do about gaming. They say the same thing about rock music, violent movies, and many other aspects of pop culture. Blame these things, because it couldn't possibly be a lack of good parenting. Why take responsibility for yourself or your family when there are such convenient sources to blame?
They are welcome to their beliefs. But I do wish that they would stop poisoning others against us, and I wish that they would learn to keep their opinions to themselves. I will leave you with these questions. If these activities are so evil, and D&D is a recruiting tool for a world spanning Satanic organization, then where is any proof of its existence?
Far more importantly, if this cult exists, and D&D is a gateway to Black Magic... when do I get my frigging spells? I can't wait for Charm Boss and Win Lottery...
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That was awesome!! I'm a level seven gamer, but I still haven't gotten my first level spells. I'm getting depressed and might have to shuffle myself off of this mortal coil. Maybe I'll get better rolls during my reincarnation. LMAO. These people are idiots. Stand tall, gamers. Stupid people will come and go, but games are FOREVER!!! Go Satan. LOL
You may be interested in joining the Committee for the Advancement of Role-Playing Games. The CAR-PGa was founded in 1987 as a response to a trashy Entertainment Tonight segment by Geraldo about the "dangers" of D&D. It remains one of the foremost groups in the field of collecting and debunking anti-RPG sentiment.
At the very least you should consider subscribing to their YahooGroup which contains a lot of interesting information in its threads. The CAR-PGa can be found at: http://www.theescapist.com/carpga.htm
You know, this was a well-written article and all, but I don't really think it's topical anymore. In the last five years or so, gaming has become very mainstream, at least here in the Midwestern USA. Whereas back in my high-school days (the early nineties), I was afraid to be known as "one of those freaky D&D players", now it's really just one of those hobbies.
I think the advent of LARPing really pushed RPGs in general into the limelight - and while a lot of folk have a serious attitude about "those weird LARPers", nobody really seems to mind tabletop gaming as much since.
Maybe in your section of the Bible Belt this differs, I dunno. Cheers anyhow, and may your dicebag never fray!
Starhawk
Point taken Starhawk. I do agree that things have changed for the positive in the last decade. My purpose in writing the piece was twofold.
First, many gamers don't know the history of our hobby. The Pulling report represents a major victory for us, and I thought that people should be aware of it.
Second, many people don't realize just how many people still villify gaming. The articles that I have linked to are all still active, and all still get quite a bit of traffic. Granted the tempo and tone of the attacks have changed a bit, but they are still there.
Now instead of contending with the world at large frowning at our hobby we just have to watch out for the occasional attack from the religious right.
Oh, and D.P. thanks for the tip. I just subscribed to the YahooGroup.
The RPG Defense League is down. The loss of
that site dealt a serious blow to pro-gaming research.
Starhawk, you're right about the midwest. Unfortunately, I doubt the bible belt has relaxed very much. Excellent story Arkelias! I've been playing for over 20 years now and remember well having to keep my hobby under wraps. I also remember how hard it could be to find new players. They would play one or two times and then wouldn't be able to make another game because their parents found out what they were playing. It never mattered that the parents knew me, knew that I was a good kid, and knew that my parents were very involved in my life. (By that I mean dishing out the discipline when needed.) As soon as they heard "Dungeons and Dragons", Johnny couldn't play anymore.
Dark Dungeons is always good for a laugh. I just read through the other links you provided and wanted to through my vote behind having everyone check these out. I realize that with the incessant bible quotes, they can be hard to read, but it's well worth seeing what others are saying about our hobby.
Check out Dork Dungeon, a rather funny spoof of Dark Dungeon.
Here too, the anti-gaming movement has diminished to the point that its members are seen as narrow minded bigots by the general populace. But then, it never was as strong as in some parts of the US or as in the rest of Canada.
The anti-gaming movement has wasted alot of energy trying to bring us down. Their "scientific" arguments have always been demolished by people in the fields of psychology and educationnal science. What remains is their beliefs. And as such one cannot attack them for their beliefs as long as they don't impose them onto others.
What hurts the anti-gaming movement the most is that its members are usually narrow minded about more than gaming, be it religious beliefs or ethnic tolerance. That eventually makes their position lose its appeal to the general public.
Making fun of them is ok I guess, but if RPGers start treating the anti-gamers the way they treated us, we become like them and worst, we give some credibility to some of their claims that we are a hatefull malevolent bunch of people.
Anyhow, I guess the solution is to live and let live and prove to them that most of us are only guilty of being (perhaps) a little more excentric than most people.
Cthulhu Matata
Sadly, in the southern US, the Bible-Thumpers reign supreme,
and D&D (and every other RPG) is denounced as a vessel of evil.
A few months ago, I got passed an honest-to-god Chick
Tract by some guy on the street. Really frightening.
Though a few of the members of my extended family are still in the "gaming is evil" mindset and I have to be careful not to mention my hobby around them, I have a bigger problem with gaming being seen as dorky than it being seen as Satanic. Whenever I mention to people that I spend 3 nights a week role-playing they look at me like I've grown an extra head. "You mean...you're a college student, and you play Hunter on Friday nights instead of getting stinking drunk?" Their loss, though...it's gotten to the point that my games are so entertaining that I no longer need to watch TV. Screw watching ER on Thursday nights, I've gotta find out what happens in Mage!
Great article, Arkelias. (c:
When I first started playing AD&D six years ago, my parents wondered whether I had joined a sect, because of words like "spells", "priests" and so on. I explained them it was just a game involving roleplaying... heck, I even created a session especially for them... they were convinced it was harmless allright...
So, people who don't know anything about the game might get the wrong idea by hearing word like "spells" and "priests" and "multiple gods".
I agree with Starhawk with gaming becoming more mainstream in the last couple of years. And of course the "Lord of the Rings" movie certainly boosted sales and publicity of roleplaying games... At least, it did it here, in The Netherlands. I can only speak for the situation here in The Netherlands, where the "gaming is evil" topic was hardly an issue.
During the last elections in America I was somewhat concerned that, if her husband was elected, Tipper Gore would use her infuence to go on a crusade against things she sees as evil, like D&D. In her book "pg kids in an x-rated society", published in 1987, Tipper Gore briefly discusses the evil of D&D. (read the excerpt here: http://www.urbin.net/EWW/polyticks/tipper.html ). luckily, it wasn't to be...
By the way, there is a great mock anti-D&D page:
http://www.co.jyu.fi/~np/gameofsatan/
and in case you're wondering if this guy is serious:
http://www.co.jyu.fi/~np/rpg/DnD/comments.html
he isn't, it's a joke....
Great article Arkelias
Rhanz
Now i know its a bit late to post to this thread but here I go anyway. I've been gaming since WAY back when. (1980 or so) I was not even the "recomeneded age" on the side of the red basic D&D box I had. So I was gaming all through the time of D&D as Satanic and that it caused suicides. And of course my mom ate up every word of it and like gamerchick I still can't really mention it around her with out getting a ration of BS from her. Back in my Jr. High days she once went on a rampage and destroyed nearly all of my gaming stuff (even the carwars, battle tech/mech warrior and gamaworld stuff) I scavanged and salvaged what I could and hid it at my friend's house. And I still play to this day (nearly a decade later)
I was recently in a giant used book store and was browsing through the role playing section when I happened upon a small group of books about the evils of D&D that were writen in the mid to late 80's. Many of them were writen by psycologist or theripist but every one of them pulled out the Christian card at some point in their books. And I'm certainly dating myself here but do any of you remember the episode of "The Greatest American Hero" where there was a group of gamers that took it too far and disapeared into the tunnles and sewers under their college?? The Anit D&D movement was pretty mainstream in its day. One thing to look out for however is this... Just because the Anit D&D/gamer movement is not as active as it once was that does not mean it will not rear its ugly head again. Things seem to have cycles like that...D&D was huge in the 70's and early 80's Then the anti D&D groups popped up. Soon they died away but rpgs were also less well known outside of those in the hobby. (I remember the reaction of people when I told them I played D&D "People still play that??") So along with this new fame of Gaming there just might come a new wave of Anit gaming groups (most likely the same people who say Wicca is devil worship and that talk about safer sex should be banned from schools)
The public hysteria over D&D back in the 80's, was part of a larger hysteria that saw devils in many aspects of youth culture, most notably in music.
The mania was no different from the witch trials of old. The media tended to strip the craziest allegations from the statements of fundamentalist Christians, who seemed to capitalize this mania in a fit of moral entrepreneurship. When I was going through some transcripts from a live "D&D forum" telecast on the CBC, I saw the soundbites from these anti-D&D celebrities. They clearly spoke about demonic possession, but when newspapers used their quotes, they edited those statements out, leaving in the pseudo-science about people "going crazy."
I'd like to say that it would never happen again, but people are people, and there is always some kind of social hysteria permeating the culture. The song Blame Canada from the South Park movie a few years ago was a clever satire on the way groups have knee-jerk responses for things they find uncomfortable or that they don't understand. It was the perfect book-end to Columbine. Now we have the Blue Springs police force in the US seeking federal money to eradicate goth culture, just as Fox TV releases an "expose" of "real life vampires" (just a bunch of extravagant goths).
As a public relations professional, I'm constantly shocked at the amount of crap that people swallow without first thinking about what they are believing. If pretending to be something else causes the devil to possess you, or causes you to become that thing, why have not actors started killing people. Should we fear Anthony Hopkins for his Oscar winning performance?
Of course we should fear Hopkins and Williams and DeNiro and the person inside Big Bird's suit. We should burn John Ritter at the stake for encouraging poligammy in Three's Company. We should nuke San Francisco where homosexuality and wicca are accepted!
Of course we kill all the muslims and arabs because a bunch of them killed bankers and stock market brokers. We also beat the crap out of all those pot heads, those who play/listen/talk about/like to rap, rock, heavy metal, jazz or any non classical music. And finally kill/convert/imprison all the non christians, the vegetarians and those who think the North American way of doing things is wrong.
Then we can go back to living healthy moral lives, mary at 15, have kids at 16 and eat 3 portions of meat per day, go to church every sunday, beat our spouse and kids at least once a week when we get into a drunken stupour.
The people who go on violence sprees are those who can't find a way to channel their angst, frustration and agresivity. Take away their "healthy" escape route, force them to bottle up their feelings because everybody needs to be a declawed kitten and you get road rage, high school shootings and Oklahoma City (how ever you spell that city's name).
Ever wonder why alot of male from Generation X liked "Fight Club" so much? Ever wonder why those who "hold the Bible Belt" hated it? That movie hit the spot on so many levels it was scary.
Anyhow, I think the best defence againts the Bible Crazed Fanatics is to do constructive things with roleplaying games. Let them do the mud slinging while we show the more reasonable people the possible good that one can do with RPG's. Like:
- Showing gaming CAN be a learning and growing tool for the players.
- It makes teenagers read more books (but books are evil so scratch that).
- In Brazil they use alot of roleplaying in schools.
- Most job training involves some form of roleplaying or simulation.
Cthulhu Matata euh... I mean Amen.
True Sam, but just as I think anyone should be wary of demonifying RPGers, goths, athiests, Canadians, etc, I think we should also be wary of deifying them.
The God-fearing masses objected more to the trappings of the genre (ie, spells, devils) rather than the idea of pretending to be someone else. The anti-D&D people associated "pretending" with things that they felt to be very physically real, like devils. Thus, they felt threatened, not because the players thought they were doing anything dangerous, but rather, because the players DIDN'T see any danger at all!
There is a geek-elitist attitude among many in the RPG crowd that the people who play them are smarter than those who don't. The APA's tests in the 80's indicated that role-players DO NOT have significant differences in IQ from the average person. Some speculated that they lent themselves naturally to people who were mathematically inclined - with their endless tables and charts. Therefore it was reasonable to see that, at least in the early years, their adult ranks were filled with engineering and computer types - mostly male, and with whatever self-perceptions and prejudices these groups held to begin with.
Things may have improved for us gamers, but never let that get you complacent. I can remember crossing picket lines in the early days just to buy my gaming stuff. Wasn't safe to be a kid back then!
I thought all that was over, yet recently, one of my daughters friends wanted to join our regular D&D game, but was forbidden by her parents on the grounds that it was satanic.
And, yes, in this area, this is a group that regularly tours the local churches preaching about the evil of D&D. I actually asked one of them to show me where the spells were in the players handbook, sionce I couldn't find them. They declined.
At the same time, we as gamers should be aware at all times how we potray ourselves, and what impression we give others, and lets never forget our history, lets it repeat itself.
I use to work at Cyberdungeon both the Online store and the Real store (La Librairie Donjon).
Some of my friends still work there. Lord of the Rings and to some extent 3rd edition have made the game and its themes more accessible to the public at large. Hence we have noticed that we get less of the odd looks now than what we got 10 or 20 years ago (I know Paul wasn't born then but I was playing).
Also Gaming seems to put off people less than before. I mean 10 years ago, you never put that under the Hobby section of a job aplication form and never brought up this subject when hitting on people.
Now when you explain RPG's you can say: "You know Lord of the Rings? Well it's like weird blend between play acting it and playing chess or other strategy board games."
Thank you Legolas and Aragorn for bringing in the girls. I know G.C. not all of you liked them, but many if not most ladies go dreamy eyes when they think about these two.
I hope this isnt a dead horse issue, but I had something I wanted to add on the subject. Teh main thing wrong with gaming is actually a human problem. People with addictive personalities are the real issue, which isn't the game's fault at all. When people are working, with healthy relationships, no one really says anything. Its when they withdraw and become extreme introverts that people begin to take issue. The game has nothing to do with it, but it becomes teh focus of hostility. Like any other addiction, many blame the substance.
Gaming is a positive experience when it isnt used as a deflection for reality. Many do use it as ultra-escapism, and end up damaging their lives severely. We all know the sad stories of people on Divorcequest, and Crack: the addiction. Of course, the media only reports when someone does something sensationalist: no one does a news story on a fun, non suicidal game.
Parents worry about their children's futures, and D&D unfortunately has a dark cloud over it in this respect. Ceos, lawyers, doctors, etc don't game; they get addicted to careerism instead, which is generally interpreted as success. Parents worry when their child shuns what are considered normal activities. These fears are multiplied when they lose interest in physical activity, dating, and their appearance, which are signs of depression. It would be a mistake to assume that this is simply the manisfestation of bible belt stupidity (which is itself a bigoted statement). Many parents steward their children towards goals they see as productive and successful, which is in fact part of parenting.
Anyway, I just thought I'd add my two cents. Thanx for listening
There is a certain irony to Sam from Quebec's call to "leave the mudslinging to the Bible Crazed Fanatics" when a few paragraphs above he is claiming that all Christians beat their wives and kids.
To be more specific: evidently, what you have against "Bible Crazed Fanatics" isn't that they hate--it's that they hate the wrong targets. You have a lot of hate yourself.
PS My wife's best friend died in the World Trade Center on 9/11. She was applying for a temp job there. Not a banker or stock broker at all.
PPS She wasn't Christian either. She was Hindu.
Exactly my point.
Not all christians are bible crazed fanatics, not all the victims of WTC 9/11 were bankers and lawyers, not all christians beat other people, just as not all gamers are devil worshippers, sex-crazed geeks or whatever.
What I was saying though, a few posts above. Is that the bible-crazed fanatics who constantly attack those who are not as pure and righteous as them would lead us into a world where many of the things I described in the post you refered to would be accepted.
You know a guy, called Jesus I think, once said: "it is easier to see the straw in a man's eye than a girder in one's own." Well the translation from french would sound like that, I guess.
My posts were meant to exagerate (a bit too much you would rightly say) the fact that the most self-rigtheous people are often the most wrong. Just as some terrorist or leader quote "divine" scripture to commit a sorts of attrocities in the name of their god are just hiding their own agendas and cruelty.
Mind you I have nothing against religion, I think it gives good spiritual nourishment to most people. But like all things, when it is pushed to the extreeme or forced onto others, it become destructive both spiritually and physically.
About that dark place inside of me, you're right at the time I wrote this I was constantly being confronted with people who "for the right reasons" did all sort of horrible things. I guess I came off quite angry and vitriolic.
While I'm truly sorry for your friend's loss I am even sorrier that the victims of horrible acts of violence are turned to martyrs to justify more horrible things.
*sigh* an incredibly late post. I've read some of those Chick Tract thinggummys, and they just make me laugh. Especially the one where the professer teaching evolution gets ran out of the school...D&D is nothing more than a game. It's only purpose is to have fun. And I damn well do.
Well- here in the south you are still considered a "Geek" and a "Satanist" if you play D&D. It is hard to get the books and or dice anywhere near the area I live in and if someone fundie finds out that you play- you are in for a ear throbbing headache. Oy. Many a college day I was disturbed from my dungeon planning (all quite descrete pencil and graph paper with little notes in the margins) by some nut that wanted to talk to me about the 'evils' of gaming. Oh and Please.
On a bright note: My mother, unlike some of the other parents mentioned in the above responses, never did have a problem with me playing. She has even sat in on a few games and played her chaosling mage, Millicent. She says that it builds character, helps with language skills and that everyone should just relax. Gotta love mom. :)
P.S. Order the Chick tract "Dark Dungeons" for your gaming crew and give it out with dice and candy in goodie bags. It will give EVERYONE a good laugh. Trust me. ;)
I am a Christian. I would like to ask you if you know what fundamentalist means? It means one who holds to the original truth. I would like to add that the church has been blamed for stuff it didn't do and overlooked as nothing more than idiots since before anyone here was a twinkle in their mom's eye. I'm not gonna lie. Some religious folks blame the media for everything. But do not cry as if you are being persecuted. It's no big deal. Are you having to DIE for what you love? No, maybe some social stigma. Maybe some ridicule and bad preaching at best. But you're not really suffering. And I honestly hope that you do not look at every one who holds a Bible as your enemy. We are not your enemy. Many are scared about this stuff, others are confused. Is it really too much to ask that we lower the church bashing a little? Please? I already think my church needs an overhaul. Don't give me one more lecture to write to them.
Neurotically and civlly yours,
Theophenes
Theophenes,
I am the author of the article. Yes, I do know what fundamentalist means. Yes, its true that the church has been blamed for things that it did not do. However, there is also a huge list of things that it did do. Persecution. Inquisition. Intolerance. But that's an argument best discussed elsewhere. Feel free to email me and I will me be more than happy to talk at length about it.
This article was not designed to bash the church. It was designed to tell the truth about role-playing. It also serves as a historical reference to the things that ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Things, I might add, all done in 'the name of Christ'. Reread the article if you need too. The police, schools and other orginizations were provided false information that resulted in the imprisonment of many teens whose only crime was rolling some dice and having a good time.
I would also really appreciate it if you could come down off of your high horse and join the rest of us 'heathens'. True, we are not having to die to protect gaming. But so what?
You don't die if you are a slave. Or if you can't vote. But you are still denied your basic rights. If people want to game they should be able to do it without the biggotry and misinformation.
And to turn your argument back on you. Don't cry because people are bashing your religion. Are you having to DIE for what you love? No maybe some social stigma. Maybe some ridicule and bad preaching. But you are not really suffering.
Not all Christians are "Fundamentalists" either, so don't act as if they are. My best friend is a Christian and he is certainly not. I usually don't have a problem with normal Christians. They don't care if I game and don't try to reshape my life into their idea of "good"-- however the Fundie to Norm ratio where I live is woefully unbalanced.
Fundamentalist, in my book, is any group which uses that particular word to identify themselves or any group which behaves in a closely similar manner to groups that identify themselves as such. It may be the Pagan Grove of Bunny-Fufu but if it behaves like a Fundamentalist Congregation- it doesn't matter if they worship a bunny Goddess or Jesus- they're both Fundie organizations. It just happens that in this country the Christian sorts of Fundies outweigh the other sorts in most circles.
What I'm saying is that I'm not taking any particular jibes at Christianity in general. That was not my intent. I am, however, complaining that close-minded individuals (who just happen to be Christian) who label themselves "Fundamentalist" or act accordingly do claim far too much social power where I live. It hampers my ability to advertise for players and it also make for some serious annoyances. That is game related, on topic and a legitimate wah wah. I was pleased when I read Arkelias' article because, if we could get such an article printed for wide circulation (say in a few newspapers)--- that may stop some of the discrimination against players. There is a potential salve for my trouble-- am I not to support it's being spread?
Man I'm glad this whole thing never caught on around me. I live in the northeast and most of us up here are a bunch of hippie pagans. There are some people who thin that gaming is evil and even tried to have a Harry Potter book burning once. The police took away their fire permit. Those people are seen for the wackos they are and have zero social influence.
Well EaterOfTheDead42, I too am lucky to live in a part of the world where religious freaks aren't the norm, actually it's quite the oposite.
Still, sometimes the atheistes or the "unspecifically religious" are just as intolerant as some fundamentalist.
Of course they don't say your a sinner or evil for having faith, but they will mock or question (ad nauseam) what spirituality you have in your life.
Me and my girlfriend are getting maried in church next fall, you should hear the reactions of some people. It's sometimes as bad as if I said I was bigamous or that I thought the earth was flat.
The more things change the more they stay the same, just look at how most gamers reacted to the "Christian RPG" which I can't recall the name. Sure I thought it sucked, as many other RPG's do, but I don't think it warented the level of bashing it got.
I have talked to countless 'non-gamers' about D&D. For the most part, they have no idea what it is, exactly. The explanation that seems to work for me, is as follows...
Me: "D&D is LIKE a video game...but without the console."
Inept: "Huh? How does that work?"
Me: "Well...everything is done by hand, with dice and paper."
Inept: "Okay...but...where does the GAME come from?"
(here's where I slip in the stealth-insult!)
Me: "The DM creates the world and the initial plot for the game. Then the actions of the players determine the outcome of the story and the direction of the game. We use our imaginations.
Inept: "......"
Me: "You see, a videogame is a pre-conceived storyline with one (or more) storylines and endings. The reason videogames are more popular with the "masses" is that it eliminates the need for imagination."
Inept: *drooling*
Me: "(sigh) nevermind...here's that Creed CD you wanted."
Inept: "...huh? Oh...I like Creed."
Sam- what part of the world are you from?? Maybe I just live a little too close to the american bible belt, but I can't even imagine living somewhere where people react with open negativity to the idea of a wedding in a church. Around here, people who completely do not believe get married in churches just to keep relatives off their back, and I suspect that anyone who openly stated disapproval of a church wedding would, in many social circles, seriously regret that decision.
Sam from Quebec...is from...Quebec. duh
Wow. I don't know why that rather obvious answer didn't sink in earlier.
Hi. I live in the bible crotch (just below the "belt"). And i am an avid gamer. I even play *gasp* D&D and *save vs. fainting from aura of blasphemy*Cthulhu. I have been involved in Christian missions, and organizations. I am gonna go to seminary (I need a bachelor's first). I have been told by ministers that D&D is evil and of the devil. This from a man that i have taken seriously many times, and have had few moments to question his ability to lead others in faith. But he was ludicrisly(sp?) blind to the reality behind some silly games. What is even more insane is that there were maybe 25% of people in that christian organization that gamed or had gamed, and still maintained a strong faith. (a miracle, or deception? you decide *dunh dunh duhhh*)
My parents wer fundamentalist Chrsitains and wouldn't let me play D&d when i was a kid, i was patient though, i knew they'd come around, heck they've even bought me books since then. And my dad's a minister.
Anyway, there was no point to this post. I'm sorry.
Sure there was. Your experience is germane to the thread and to the article itself. No apologies necessary.
And Cadfan, we all have our days. Don't sweat it.
Fundamentalist? Ick...
Fundamentalist:
1 a often capitalized : a. movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b. : the beliefs of this movement c. : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
I am a fundamentalist Christian according to this. Except I'm not a Protestant or a Catholic. I'm just a a Christian.
Truth be told, it's weird to hear people use the word and think of what the media has made a "Christian" out to be. I think you guys are thinking of the preacher in "Footloose" and "Dirty Dancing". You think of a loudmouth bigot with a bad temper. You think of a man who puts his foot into his mouth. There's a harsh bias here.
I am truly sorry for what some of "the church" has done to you nice folks. I use quotation marks because I am not part of the Church that persecuted you, I hope.
May god bless you with truth and wisdom.
I hope I ain't being arrogant or rude here.
Regrettably yours,
Theophenes
You're not being arrogant or rude, theophenes. It isn't fair when jerks give you a bad name that you don't deserve.
That being said, the media had nothing to do with my opinion of what are commonly referred to as fundamentalists. My opinion came from meeting and interacting with them, repeatedly, for many years.
Still, the fact that there are an awful lot of them out there in real life doesn't make it any more fair to paint you with the same brush.
The only suggestion I have is for you to remember when people say "fundamentalist" what they mean is someone who's a bible thumping jerk, generally highly conservative, who has political views based solidly from what they believe their religion supports, generally inadequately supported by intelligent thought, and yet are ready and eager to force others to adhere to them. If you aren't one of those, then you really aren't what people are talking about when they say "fundamentalist.'
...we travelled all the way from Midnight, "Missippi"
We're here to bring the word of god to the Wal-Mart baby. (guess that movie!)
_______________
I've gone to many different churches, all the different "alignments" of the christian faith. Now...I'm agnostic. Hmm...how'd that happen?
After a while, you start to see things about the church, the faith, or primarily the PEOPLE that you don't agree with. For the most part, if they KNOW you have a disagreement in beliefs or morals or WHATEVER...they alienate you. That's MY experience anyway.
I'm not against religion at all...I just think that a large percentage of the people who 'believe' are...well...
...there's just something wrong with them...and 'goin to choch' doesn't seem to be helping.
Ya know?
MA
Theophenes
I'm sorry you've been offended by any perceived attacks on your beliefs. However, I have to agree with the posts here on the whole. I've lived both in and out of the bible belt and I've run into lots of the sorts of christians that are being attacked here. I've actually run into ministers and believers that could have been John Lithgow's inspiration for the role in Footloose. Even living in Wisconsin now, I still run into more people than I would care to telling me how evil I am.
I like the idea of ordering the Chick publications and handing them out to my gaming group. However, rather than give that ass any money, print them out from his web page for free.
Just like to mention that I am an ordained minister and I don't have any problems with gaming. In no way does the Bible condemn gaming any more than it condemns playing cops and robbers. The bible says don't steal. It doesn't say you can't pretend to steal. It's just a bloody game!
I like the point Couchpotatoe.
IT'S JUST A GAME!
Jeez.
The biblical d20 that was mentioned earlier is called Testament. I think Green Ronin is the publisher. I plan to pick it up when I can find it in m area.
Eater of the Dead 42,
don't pick it up, it ain't worth it. It's not as bad as Macho Women with Guns, but just barely.
Well it's your dough, you decide.
Good to see that there are open minded ministers out there, the church just might adapt enough to survive the 21st century after all.
Couchpotatoe,
I wouldn't recommend revealing your 'dorkdum' to your congregation.
They already know. Some of my congregation have gamed with me.
Some of the really, really old people don't like it all that much but things were different in their day.
Couchpotatoe,
When I was in High School, our parish deacon ran a youth program involving all manner of board and card games on friday nights. While Deacon Tom did not play RPGs himself, he did let me run one for the other kids. He felt the same way you do, that its just a game, and if it helps attract adolescent kids to church on Friday nights, it can't be all bad.
I wish people would hurry up and 'evolve' where I live...
(Actually, I'll just continue to wait for the invaders to get here)
Er... humph.
Actually Mystic, there has been a problem with our invasion plan for your planet. It seems, the countractor for our mothership's guidance system used sub-standard parts. The ship emerged out of hyperspace on the other side of the galaxy and conquered another planet.
We'll have to get back to you for our invasion, oh well, that other planet is way less poluted anyway.
Here goes nothing....
Sam, if you need a spaceship fleet, I can make a call to Stavromular Beta. Due owes me a favor....
I do understand why Rpg's get a lotta flak. There are mythological and even occult references. That doesn't make me blink much though, because C.S. Lewis (A devout Christian and good author) use references from Greek mythology in what many think his greatest work, "The Chronicles of Narnia".
I do, however, believe pokemon is of the devil's greatest workers-foreign maketing execs! DIIIEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
That said, I'm truly sorry that alot of 'Christians' (under the loosest definition of the term) have bashed y'all. I already said that, I know, but I feel guilty about the fact that we have done you more harm than bloody Gygax could possibly be blamed for. We here at the church love to use scapegoats such as the media and Rpg's to make up for the fact that we are doing so little. We use scapegoats like school bulllies and say they won't let us do anything to help. I hope we can change that soon...
Hopefully still yours,
Theophenes
Like any change, if it occurs it is because the person/organisation feels it has a need for it.
Otherwise, change is too much a nuisance to bother with it.
Actually I'll pass on Stavromular's fleet, they used the same contractor as us but for their waste reclamation system, I'd hate to have the proverbial shit hit the fan in hyperspace, so thanks but no.
Still I'll keep it in mind.
Honestly though, the Christian RPG probably had an effect (at least indirect) in what will come out as Book of Exalted Deeds. At last a book about playing the good guys. I do hope they'll get into the subjectivity of goodness (ie: while it may be good to destroy the evil king, it might bring great an unnecessary suffering to his good and neutral subjects). I do hope they dwell some more on ethical and moral dilemas than others books did in the past. We'll see.
I heard the occasional "Hey, isn't D&D that satanic thing?" comment when i was growing up, but more often I was just called a geek for playing. Well, I was (am, probably) a geek for all sorts of reasons, so it didn't bug me that much. ;)
Anyway, I suppose I've been fairly lucky in that I never got a whole lot of flack for the supposed 'bad' overtones of gaming since I was much younger (I'm 29 now, so it's been a while since I started gaming...17 years or so, I guess?). I grew up in southwest Missouri, in a very conservative area, but by the time I was in my late teens it didn't seem to be an issue in that way. It's interesting to see that other people have had that sort of conflict with others even in recent years, though. In my experience, it seems like it's been fairly well accepted as odd, but not particularly harmful. I certainly don't need to be prepared with my list of defenses for roleplaying the way I did when I was younger.
well hello.a rather late post but anyway.fot those of you, that think this subject is finished, let me just tell you this.
Its not.At least not over here.Over here, beeing Greece.Well i dont know what u guys know about this little country, but we arent really that behind in things, except, when it comes to roleplaying.We got a few stores and stuff, and 2 orgs, but our hobby is largely unknown.That is, untill the media got to it.Prime time television hour, 4 different channels, were describing to anyone who was listening, that roleplaying games like vampire, are a gateway to satanism and actual blood drinking.They illustrated this, with a video of someone pretending to be playing DnD, only using magic the gathering cards, and saying stuff like ''i invoke satan''.The table featured a black candle and incence.Apparently, we invoke satan everytime we play.Right after that, Vampire:TM was outlawed, and actually taken off stores.Now this is over, but i dont think the matter is closed.We're having mighty fine time though.
I know that wasn't the intent of the article, mon ami. I wasn't on a high horse either, dude. I wasn't ranting on you as much as I was just a little shocked that some churches were doing something that stupid, and a little incredulous. I'm sorry if I sounded like some stupid soap box ranter, but I've a knack for speaking or typing what I think makes sense, and it comes out wrong when someone reads it. I'm not crying, and I'm not condemning. I guess the D&D stigma was before my time, bewcausew I would have been on your side in the 80's, not my church's. And I was just tired of getting people claiming atheism because some idiots did some really hateful stuff in the name of God. I know this is mostly unrelated, but I wasn't condemning anyone, I had just wrote some sore notes on a very, very, bad day. So I humbly ask forgiveness for my harshness previously.
well, well, is this thread is dead? is its subject dead? will it ever be?
I have to say (if anyone is actually reading this) that some of this stuff is really scary.
Although logically religous people probably aren't more susceptible to bigotry and intolerance than other people, the problem with them is that you usually can't reason with them because if you are, you're "going against the word of God", and the fact they take everything told them by church (or mosque, or temple) officials as Holy Writ makes it all so frustrating (trust me, i've tried).
actually, this thread has got me wanting to say so many things, that i'll shut up now and wait to see if anyone's reading this at all, more than two years after the thread was started.
good thing the fundamentalist Jews around here in Israel have got other subjects to muck around with.
- have mercy on the newbie -
i am a christian i am a gamer i am a minister i agree we must watch how we potray ourselves or we will give anti gamers the proof they are looking for ( i play d&d 3.5 ad&d traveller classic 4th edition
t-20)ps the christian right are not the only ones after are games
Hmmm.
I was raised a Christain...and am still a Christain. I believe in being nice to others, turning the other cheek, and being as selfless and humble as possilbe. Sometimes I fail -- it happens. But, one of the bright points of the Christain faith is that I have the hope for forgiveness for my failures, mistakes, and whatnot -- it's not justifiaction to go out and rape and pillage and all that...but, if I screw up, it's not the end of the world...'cause I have hope. The biggest mistake (my take) is to give up. There's more meat to Christanity that just that...including theories of the afterlife and nuances of worship...but that covers some of the basics, from where I stand.
I also like to play D&D with my friends and have a good, fun time. I also try to stay open minded...within reason.
Some people's mileage may vary...but I don't really see any contradictions here.
What things were you wanting to say? Kinda hard to make a statement without anything to go off of, ya know?
Heh... we had a parent tell our group that his son was "no longer part of your 'program' ". Program? Well, keeping his son from playing AD&D with our group certainly curtailed our evil deeds, as it was his turn to bring the goat's blood that month.
Sheesh.
Since when did AD&D de-volve into a "program" ?
Tom Hanks & "Mazes and Monsters" rings a bell, too. I hear ya' Tribal... I go that far back, too. =)
"Some speculated that they lent themselves naturally to people who were mathematically inclined."
I can honestly sit here at my keyboard and proudly proclaim that I in no way ever personified the above statement... even 20+ years of gaming later!
"Anyway, there was no point to this post. I'm sorry."
I disagree. Any post that mentions the bible-crotch is worthy!
Hell, in the interest of keeping this thread alive, I'll just sign on here at the bottom after Rogue. Geez, I seem to be following this Rogue-person all over the site.
IT'S ALIVE, I TELL YOU, ALIVE!
the thread, that is...
wel, i'm in the middle of an exam period, so i'll have to spew all what i've got to say at a later time...sorry.
see ya on March
- have mercy on the newbie -
I'm an atheist, but, you know, if I were a superstitious person, I'll totally be into Satan. But lest you condemn me to the hellfires, I'm also into Buddha, Krishna and some of the tenants of Judaism. I even think L.Ron Hubbard is cool in a geeky "DM on a power-trip" way.
Christianity, on the other hand, never did anything for me. I could never make the philosophical leap from "Jesus was a friendly dude with some good ideas about how we should treat each other" to "Jesus was the embodiment of God and he died for our sins". I mean, you'd think that if Jesus had all the knowledge of God, he would have invented the lightbulb or something.
A few reasons tabletop role-playing is not longer considered "a threat" to good clean parenting.
1- The impressionable 12-16 year old set are, for the most part, the children of parents who came of age in the 1980s. These parents are little more clued in than than the parents of previous generations. Many of them played D&D in their youths.
2- Parents are just happy their kids are reading and socializing, instead of sitting in front of the TV or computer all day.
3- D&D skews to an older crowd.
4- Despite what anyone tries to tell you on these websites, D&D is NOT more popular now and is NOT more mainstream than it was two decades ago. Before Nintendo, D&D was THE singular pasttime of bored suburban kids across the nation.
4- There's a lot worse stuff the kids could be doing.
Most smart parents would prefer their kids over-indulge in fantasy to over-indulging in sex/drugs/crime etc.
Just quickly:
I would happily run a game for anyone's parents who thought the game was satanic. I'd advise doing the same.
I'd advise against forgotten realms/eberron/etc and try a setting they enjoy. Explain it as storytelling.
"You can't say pen and paper is evil because someone could use it to write a dirty word"
Let them choose a story they like, offer suggestions. Robin Hood works well. If they *really* want they can play a game *in* the bible, but I'd advise against it unless you know the stories extremely well, and are an excellent DM. Let them play Israelites being oppressed by the Pharoah, struggling to fed their family. Avoid use of actual religious figures.
If they are complaining, they are obviously capable of making mountains out of molehills, so don't give them any molehills.
The group I'm with in Dubai has had:
4 Christians. (Mixed Denominations)
1 Jew.
3 Muslims.
2 Atheists.
1 Agnostic.
4 Unknown (These people left before I joined they could be anything)