Minotaurs with Machine Guns?
When considering the techno-futuristic cyberpunk genre there are really only two choices for gaming: Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020. Shadowrun is a world of magic and machine guns. Cyberpunk 2020 is more pureblood, leaving magic to the fantasy games. For the money, Cyberpunk 2020 is the better choice. The system is more streamlined, you don't get a mixing of genres, and who can dispute the enjoyment of thumbing through the latest Chrome?
When considering the techno-futuristic cyberpunk genre there are really only two choices for gaming: Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020. Shadowrun is a world of magic and machine guns. Cyberpunk 2020 is more pureblood, leaving magic to the fantasy games. For the money, Cyberpunk 2020 is the better choice. The system is more streamlined, you don't get a mixing of genres, and who can dispute the enjoyment of thumbing through the latest Chrome?
Both games are set in the post-government, urban-industrial cities of the world. Corporations have effectively bought out government and now run the world. A large underground population exists frequenting dark clubs, decrepit buildings, and gangland battlegrounds. The Internet is super-developed into a virtual reality world, a la The Matrix with deckers (computer hackers), and security programs battling it out in a cybernetic arenas. Sunglasses are ubiquitous and everyone has a hold-out pistol stashed somewhere in a boot, pants, or flack jacket.
Shadowrun has several advantages over Cyberpunk 2020: there are significantly more supplements available. FASA (who owns Shadowrun) still continues to support and update the system. Shadowrun also enjoys a wider audience, being the much more widely known and accepted of the two. Cyberpunk 2020 has recently been off the market, only available through Ebay and Amazon. Not long ago R. Talsorian games began releasing the Cyberpunk 2020 books again to the lauding of its dedicated fans. Cyberpunk 2020 offers a smaller selection of rules supplements; it hasn�t undergone a new revision in ten years, and no new supplements are planned at this point. I still give Cyberpunk 2020 the edge as the cyberpunk game of choice.
Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020 are truly very similar games. Both use a system of damage boxes, similar character attributes, a broad array of skills, flashy cyberwear, and guns, guns, and more guns. The two major differences between the games are magic and classes. Shadowrun is an open-class system. How you spend your attribute points and what skills you purchase dictate the focus of your character. You can use both magic and machine guns to get your point across, or you can specialize in numerous other fields such as decking (the Internet), rigging (super-mechanic), or fixing (setting up illicit deals), but you are not really locked into any one category. Magic users find themselves significantly more limited than other types of characters, but the devotion to magic takes a lot of your time. Cyberpunk 2020 is a class-based system. You choose exactly what type of character you wish to play and your skills, combat, and special abilities all revolve around that career choice, and magic is out of the question. The classes of Cyberpunk 2020 and the career fields of Shadowrun are generally identical with cosmetic differences.
Combat games use damage boxes to track your character�s proximity to death. Shadowrun�s combat system is designed around the ubiquitous d6. Generally speaking, you grab the appropriate number of d6, roll them, and compare your successes to your opponent�s successful defenses. The sheer number of dice required at times, and the complexity of the success/failure system tends to slow down combat and wear down player interest. Cyberpunk uses a simple d10+modifier roll (precursor to the d20 system) to resolve combat. If you hit, roll damage; simple. Combat in Cyberpunk 2020 tends to resolve more quickly and intensely than in Shadowrun. Additionally, magic is nonexistent in Cyberpunk which also decreases combat time.
Another marked difference between the two is races. Shadowrun offers the standard fantasy array of Elves, Dwarves, and Trolls. Cyberpunk 2020 only offers humans which keeps the game�s focus gritty and urbane, rather than ephemeral and fantastic.
Enemies are significantly different between Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020. In Cyberpunk you might run afoul of the police, run into the midst of a gang war, or crawl through corporate offices in a deadly firefight. In Shadowrun you should expect about the same with one marked difference: Troll cops, Elf/Dwarf gang wars, and Orc corporate thugs. My preference is to keep my genres separate so I dramatically prefer Cyberpunk�s lack of fantastic elements to Shadowrun�s constant infusion of sword and sorcery elements.
The similarities between these two games are drastic. If you prefer a more open role-playing environment or you dig the thought of gun-toting dwarves, then Shadowrun is probably the best choice for you. If you prefer a faster-paced, easier to learn system and the thought of Legolas toting an M-16 makes you shudder, then pick up the Cyberpunk 2020 game. For me, I�ll stick with Cyberpunk 2020. With the renewed availability of the books, the more pure cyberpunk genre, and the catchy lingo in the rulebooks, Cyberpunk 2020 is the clear winner for anyone who doesn�t like their genres mixed, or who want to get into an old-fashioned Friday night firefight with the least amount of effort.
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I like the comparison and contrasts here, I myself do like to have the strange mix of fantasy and sci-fi every now and then.
The Matrix obviously took many Cyberpunk elements and it was good you made reference to it.
How would a urban setting of Rifts line-up agianst either of these two settings? What about MAGE, does it compare at all? Does anyone even play the Modern d20 (if so what's it like)?
I would like to see an RPG that takes the best of all (a little less on the fantasy and magic side) sci-fi/urban games but doesn't focus on combat.
Two little points. First, FASA doesn't actualy own shadowrun anymore, they sold it to wizkids if i remember correctly.
second, the reference to the matrix in the article is actualy a reference to somthing called the matrix that i'm guessing is in both shadowrun and cyberpunk. not actualy the movie, although you are right, the movie is based upon cyberpunk fiction.
and who can dispute the enjoyment of thumbing through the latest Chrome?
like you said, there wont be any new ones, and the current ones are several years old. unless you're following the theory "if i havent seen it, its new to me"
WizKids owns Shadowrun but licensed the RPG (they still handle the action figure game and other rights themselves) to Fantasy Productions which is the German company that did book translations for FASA. They in turn created a US company called FanPro LLC which is responsible for actually doing (or hiring freelancers to do) the creative work.
For me, the biggest difference between Shadowrun and Cyberpunk isn't so much the magic and fantasy races but the depth of background material. Shadowrun is on its third edition and has been publishing books regularly since 1989. For most RPG systems this would mean a lot of obsolete dead tree piled up in used bins and landfills.
However Shadowrun has a meta-plot which every sourcebook advances slightly along with the date. First edition was set in 2054 while the current in-game year is 2063. Because of this emphasis on continuity even the oldest sourcebooks remain relevant. The rules may be obsolete and the gear may need conversion, but the background material is unchanged and applicable even to games using the latest rules.
This very solid "living" world is Shadowrun's biggest strength and something that sets it apart not just from Cyberpunk but from most RPGs. You don't need the old books, but if you use them you'll get a more complete picture of the world, a more immersive experience and a great sense of history.
All that said, it's really nice to see an article that mentions my favorite RPG on here (even if the author doesn't like it). Thanks, Zenthrus.
Yeah, the plot behind Earthdawn and Shadowrun is awesome. Horrors are some of the creepiest freaks running around rpg land. Anything that can scare a people enough to make them turn themselves into blood elves is pretty freaking nasty in my book. And we all know that sooner or later the horrors will be here...
Shadowrun also has a lot of characters in the novels, so players who like that kinda thing can get a ton of plot hooks to use. There are also a lot of nifty characters that can be enemies or allies or just there.
I am not familiar at all with Cyberpunk, so I can't really compare them very well. I will say that these things make Shadowrun really awesome though.
Nysandstil asked about d20 Modern, and, obviously, it's modern, not cyberpunk. Now, I know there are plenty of detractors out there, but I've played straight core rules a couple of times, and I must say, it's very, shall I say, heroic. By that, I mean it's kind of unrealistic, at least at higher levels. When your characters have 77 hp, they can take a bullet (most guns do 2d6 or 2d8) easy, so it gets off the wall. Without using any of the "augmented" campaign settings in the core rulebook, high level characters make no sense realistically. Oh, and hack-an-slashers should avoid the basic rules at all costs. I ran a game with hack-and-slashers once. As in, one session. They ended up killing a whole bunch of people and being arrested. Not fun.
Now, with the use of one of the campaign settings, you can add magic and D&D style stuff, or put in psionics, or do both. I have the Urban Arcana book, and I must say that it does a good job of setting up what might happen if magic and monsters started showing up in our world. But, that's genre mixing again. So, I think the basic rules can make the game kinda crazy, adding fantastic elements can balance things a lot. I mean, a 10d6 fireball is an actual danger to that 77 hp character.
No, didn't talk about cyberpunk stuff, but Nysandstil asked...
Multiplayer Video/Computer Gaming Research Project
I am currently collecting data for my dissertation tentatively entitled, 'What educators can learn from multiplayer computer gaming: A study of who is playing and their perceptions of multiplayer computer games and learning.' If you play multiplayer console or computer games with others online, face-to-face, etc., I would appreciate your time in completing the survey.
The survey instrument can be found by going to following URL
http://www.bama.ua.edu/~beedl001/informed_consent.htm , reading through the informed consent, and clicking 'I Agree.'
The sample used for this survey is a snowball, so if you know of anyone else who plays multiplayer video and/or computer games, please forward this e-mail to him/her.
Thank you for your time,
Jon Beedle
Wonder if its a universal constant for those who truly appreciate Shadowrun? The living world it puts forth is an incredible creation and their ability to keep it alive and vibrant for this many years has allowed it to grow and morph in numberous subtle ways.
For my money there are really very few other settings which offer the level of plot and intrigue from the get go. No worries about having to set up complicated scenarios and explaining to the players why this or that bit of deviousness plays well for the world. Plus, they'll be right along with you in working out the various threads and you'll have much more freedom to actually present complicated political and socialogical puzzles with a hope of them being solved.
As far as mages being un-versatile, I will admit that their loss of essense for physical enhancements and their heavy devotion of karma does take a toll. However, with a GM who isn't too harsh on the rules of money for karma this actually isn't too much of a hinderance. While everyone is buying their hefty new chain weapons or wiring their arms, you're dumping it into a charity so the universe likes you. Plus, with the depth of spells that have been added in through supplements like Magic in the Shadows, and the freedom to create your own effects within reason, there is really no reason for it to be limiting as a profession. Plus, you can still mix and match by taking initiate levels to offset your physical enhancements if you want to be a dabbler.
Anyhow, another mark for loving the Shadowrun setting and it has been my single greatest success as a GM in terms of long running campaigns that kept people coming back for months.
Wow. It's like 1988 in here again.
Before the literary genre folded up and became irrelevant, I used to be a big cyberpunk fan, both of the literature, the films, and the RPGs. My opinions:
CP2020: Despite ostensibly being based on actual cyberpunk books, this game has very little to do with the cyberpunk genre. I have always found RTG's games to be amateurishly written and CP2020's "kewlness" factor makes it worse. The authors' emphasis on "metal is better than meat" and "Cool is better than competent" demonstrates that they simply don't get the point of the genre. Later supplements demonstrate that the authors are *not* writing a game about cyberpunk at all, but rather the various anime series that have a vaguely "dark future" feel, like Black Magic M-66 and BubbleGum Crisis. Let's be clear on one thing: these series are NOT cyberpunk, in the way that term is used to refer to books. Now, if you like that sort of anime, then CP2020 is certainly going to appeal to you - go nuts. But if you are a dyed-in-the-wool fan of cyberpunk _literature_, CP2020 will probably disappoint. Especially irritating is the "Just Say No to Drugs" message, which was understandable when the books came out but is trite and silly in this day and age.
Shadowrun: This game, again, has very little to do with literary cyberpunk, even once you take into account the fusion of high fantasy. What it does do, though, is a good job of emulating cyberpunk *movies*, which are often violent action-fests with lots of hardware (CP2020 has the hardware, but the combat system is too deadly to PCs to do action movies well). It took the game until its 3rd edition to shed the self-censorship - first edition supplements were so sanitized for the consumption of potential young gamers that they were ludicrous. Although the continuous game world is hailed as a plus, remember that if you don't want to follow their history, much of the existing supplement base becomes unuseful. Also the authors stole from so many different cyberpunk books and films to create the world that the resulting mishmash frequently makes no sense whatsoever once you start thinking about the implications. Good for an action-oriented campaign that uses the visual trappings of cyberpunk, but not the core themes.
Both SR and CP2020 make the fundamental error of casting the PCs as moral rebels against a corrupt establishment, injecting a simplistic morality that may appeal to fantasy gamers but is at odds with the entire genre.
The only other cyberpunk game I know of that is still in print is GURPS Cyberpunk. Pros: exhaustively researched and very accurate IF you want real-world technology in your cyberpunk game. Cons: the version that saw publication was unavoidably scanty, and IMO *too* much emphasis was placed on realism and not enough on the way cyberpunk literature protrays its settings (which is often not very realistic). The emphasis on realism also means that the book has become somewhat dated. Good if your cyberpunk campaign takes place in the very near future, with straightforward extrapolation from existing technology.
End note: IMO no currently available RPG adequately portrays the cyberpunk literary genre. ICE's long-forgotten Cyberspace is the only one that ever got the setting right, but the system was so unusable that it never caught on. If you can find the books and supplements anywhere, though, the plotlines and world def is the best RPG example of what literary cyberpunk really looks like.
Daniel
I would have to interject that, in my opinion, Shadowrun is the superior of the two games by far. The great thing about Shadowrun, also, is if you prefer to have no magic, alternate races etc. and totaly eliminate the fantasy element is is very easy to do. Just don't use it. The system stands on it's own as a pure cyberpunk setting.
And to an earlier point. FASA went out of business and Shadowrun is published now by WizKids. Most of the Shadowrun team from FASA now works for WizKids so the game is unchanged under the new ownership.
As a final note, the cyberpunk genre was revolutionised by the authors William Gibson and Bruce Sterling. Both Cberpunk 2020 and Shadowrun borrow heavily from these two authors. The ultimate cyberpunk novel is Neuromancer by William Gibson, it is where the Matrix was invented. Any fan of the cyberpunk genre should read it.
Slight correction: the cyberpunk genre was *created* by William Gibson, and Sterling began rewriting his info-anarchist musings into cyberpunk-like settings. Shadowrun also draws very heavily from Walter Jon Williams' _Hardwired_.
The books that you most want to read to get a handle on the cyberpunk genre are probably:
William Gibson: any of his Sprawl Series, but specifically Burning Chrome, Neuromancer, Count Zero Interrupt, and Mona Lisa Overdrive. The books get somewhat metaphysical towards the end of the series.
Walter Jon Williams: Hardwired. Avoid the sequel.
George Alec Effinger: When Gravity Fails, A Fire in the Sun, Exile Kiss.
Note that I'm not including Sterling's stuff. Most of his stuff is actually just his own unique neo-Marxist info-anarchism dressed up in drag as cyberpunk. His stuff lacks the vision and cohesiveness of Gibson and Effinger.
Daniel
I would have to agree with you Daniel about Sterling's work. I havn't liked anything that I have read by him. He also has the unfortunate talent of drawing down other writers with him as is evident in Gibson and Sterlings collaborative work The Difference Engine, which is one of the pioneer works of the steampunk genre.
The problem with much of Sterling's work is that it's grounded heavily in his opinions about real-world information technology, so it's not very futuristic (it's more spec-fic than sci-fi). That said, Sterling's work is good reference for a GURPs Cyberpunk game, which is heavily grounded in real-world tech to begin with.
The best cinematic representation of VR hacking is probably (no, I'm not kidding) the TeK TV movies and TeK TV series that were ghostwritten for William Shatner. The rest of the show is crap, but the post-production CGI guys were fans of Gibson and it shows.
If anyone's interested, I can probably dig up my list of ref material for various aspects of the cyberpunk genre.
Daniel
CLASS OF 1999!!! CLASS OF 1999!!!
YEEEEAAAAAHHHH!!! WOOOOOOHOOOOO!!!
*the only one cheering*
yeah! woooo....
*cough*
CP 2020 had a Hardwired supplement written by Walter John Williams himself and later published another one set in Effinger's When Gravity Fails world. I have always preferred CP2020 to Shadowrun because of its quick and dirty system and the background generation tables offered new players an excellent way to make intriguing new characters. Even if they were unfamiliar with the genre. I co-ran a CP2020 game for 7 years. All involved in that campaign (which only ended when I moved out of town) still discuss it with a reverence. I did use quite a few Shadowrun adventures that I adapted into CP2020 and I honestly believed they contributed greatly to the flavor and success of the campaign. So in a way, I guess I am sort of in between both sides of this discussion. That being said wish that R Talsorian would publish the promised 3rd edition of the game soon. As I understand it that may indeed happen within the next year or so.
CP 2020 had a Hardwired supplement written by Walter John Williams himself and later published another one set in Effinger's When Gravity Fails world. I have always preferred CP2020 to Shadowrun because of its quick and dirty system and the background generation tables offered new players an excellent way to make intriguing new characters. Even if they were unfamiliar with the genre. I co-ran a CP2020 game for 7 years. All involved in that campaign (which only ended when I moved out of town) still discuss it with a reverence. I did use quite a few Shadowrun adventures that I adapted into CP2020 and I honestly believed they contributed greatly to the flavor and success of the campaign. So in a way, I guess I am sort of in between both sides of this discussion. That being said wish that R Talsorian would publish the promised 3rd edition of the game soon. As I understand it that may indeed happen within the next year or so.
CP 2020 had a Hardwired supplement written by Walter John Williams himself and later published another one set in Effinger's When Gravity Fails world. I have always preferred CP2020 to Shadowrun because of its quick and dirty system and the background generation tables offered new players an excellent way to make intriguing new characters. Even if they were unfamiliar with the genre. I co-ran a CP2020 game for 7 years. All involved in that campaign (which only ended when I moved out of town) still discuss it with a reverence. I did use quite a few Shadowrun adventures that I adapted into CP2020 and I honestly believed they contributed greatly to the flavor and success of the campaign. So in a way, I guess I am sort of in between both sides of this discussion. That being said wish that R Talsorian would publish the promised 3rd edition of the game soon. As I understand it that may indeed happen within the next year or so.
Wow, I didn't realise these games still caused such a stir. In my opinion; these games are as cyberpunk as you, the player, make them. The games are just a platform or springboard for freeform roleplaying. You take what you want, or mix and match (as Hurnannoyd did). Does anybody still play in Nottingham?
Shadowrun was the first RPG system that I really got into (played D&D and just felt it wasn't my style, tho still a good RPG system), and so I am biased in favor of it over any other system. That said, the ongoing story (as was pointed out above), the living history of The Sixth World of SR life does set it apart from most RPGs. The level of detail about the countries, characters, and corporations, interconnected, at war, and how they go about their shadow business is deep and entertaining. SR not only has a fully fleshed out fictional world history, but that history continues to build on itself with each new release. To be sure, the authors did borrow from other works but let's face it, who doesn't? D&D wouldn't even exist without Tolkien. The humor (SR 2 ref: Grenades in a confined space rules a.k.a. Chunky Salsa Effect) and the banter between runners commenting on what is written also helps to give a realism to the system.
On the down side, I feel the transition to Fanpro/Wizkids has had a slightly negative effect on the writing. Much of the humor and sense of realism from the FASA days has been replaced with very dry and overly factual writing. Feels like I'm reading an environmental textbook almost rather than a sourcebook about Wastelands. The banter/fighting of posters is more commenting half heartedly and there is almost no humor present. I get the sense the writers researched online and simply tweaked articles to fit the continuity of SR.
Still love SR tho and on an unrelated note, I never really considered SR as cyber-punk as it is a multifaceted fantasy RPG containing elements of many genres. A very good, entertaining system that has conspiracy upon conspiracy with the occasional heist thrown in for good measure. And the short lived Earthdawn wasn't bad either. (Ambitious to create a seperate RPG system that is the precursor to another, including a history that interacts/affects the other history, a good kind of prequel system.)