Gamegrene Open Forum 3
Fantasy film and television has brought us lots of interesting weaponry outside the norm - besides swords, axes and lots of crossbows, there are plenty of unique devices that, regardless of whether or not they could actually function, are pretty darn cool. Xena's Chakram, Krull's Glaive, the three-bladed sword in Sword and the Sorcerer... What's your favorite fantasy weapon, and why?
Fantasy film and television has brought us lots of interesting weaponry outside the norm - besides swords, axes and lots of crossbows, there are plenty of unique devices that, regardless of whether or not they could actually function, are pretty darn cool. Xena's Chakram, Krull's Glaive, the three-bladed sword in Sword and the Sorcerer... What's your favorite fantasy weapon, and why?
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I feel I should be the first to say, Lightsabers.
Other than that there wasn't much. I'm too practical when it comes to the functionality of wepons to see much use in outrageous fantasy weapons.
yeah yeah lightsabers...
I like the gunblades from FF8, too...
The gunblades are based on real weapons. You can find an assortment of pistol-daggers that were made during the 17th and 18th centuries. However, I myself think that the giant oversized swords that are twice as big as the person carrying them are kind of dumb.
The gunblade was kinda cool to see on screen and they were based on real weapons but there is a reason that those weapons weren't used after guns became more reliable. They're just not efficient. They are unweildy and the gunfire degrades the metal of the blade.
But they did look cool. Alot of the weapons in those games are way over the top. Like Cloud's swords from FF7. Outrageous.
My fave has to be the Elfin Mind Sword from Hawk the Slayer. I kind of liked the long handled Elf swords in the Lord of the Rings movies.
Some fond favs:
The Sun Sword from Thundarr
Tri-Klop's green sword from Masters of the Universe
I had a half-elf assassin in GURPS who had a dagger that did exploding damage -- stick it in...hums for a second...then splat!
The Harpoon Cannon from Skies of Arcadia. I don't see how any ship could take a direct hit from that. Also, the whip-sword from Soul Caliber. It's just so versitile.
How about the bow-staff (yeah, I spelled it like that on purpose) from Salvatore's Demonwars Saga? I can't imagine shooting arrows with a staff, nor beating people/monsters upside the head with a bow.
However, no weapon trumps the Death Star. If someone had put some kind of screen on that exhaust vent, the Empire would have won.
I would have to say the Hoopak from the dragonlance series. It is my favorite simply due to the style and the fact that kenders swear by it.
My second would have to be an assortment of weapons, and those being the weapons used by the Tann in the soverign stone series. Terribly efficent and terribly brutal.
If anyone has ever played Final Fantasy (original Nintendo) they might recal how the martial artist could do so much more damage later in the game with his bare knuckles. Same could be said for the heroes of River City Ransom after your character had read the "iron fist" book. Watching some dude's hands smash outward like a 350 small block piston has a form of poetic accuracy to it. Nothing feels quite so satisfying as seeing the bad guys whupped bare handed!
Also fun to gaze upon: the meter long butterfly knife used by Battle Angel Alita (manga).
How could I forget Kenders??????
Jeez, I must be slipping in my old age. Or my middle age, okay my I'm still young age.
I absolutely love Kender and most of their weapons are really cool yet still practical. I allways liked the Chapak, it's a hand axe/prybar/sling/blow gun/flute/snorkel, what more could a Kender want in a weapon. I had a Kender Ranger once that would weild two of them, he was sick.
Shark said:
"Watching some dude's hands smash outward like a 350 small block piston has a form of poetic accuracy to it."
That's not really a weapon now is it? Some Kender would have ballberrings and things tied or woven into topknots and braids and could then train to use their hair as weapons. I allways thought that was pretty cool.
Regarding "Skies Of Arcadia" sweet game...
I prefer the Moonstone Cannon, but the fact that the Harpoon Cannon was always shot up the enemy's ASS was particularly gratifying.
Back to FF8, Ward's weapon was interesting, also. I mean, who would think to take a ship anchor, and file it down into a giant point, then start chunkin it at enemies...
It was cool even though I could NEVER seem to get the "trigger" damage on it. I also often wondered where he PUT that big ol' thing when he wasn't fighting...
Well, magic swords are all nice and good- but more often than not I'm more a fan of a 'vanilla' weapon. Though I suppose the odd bell-handled epee used in oh so many swashbuckling films might count as a 'fantasy weapon'...
But for fictional weapons? GUNS. Ludicrously impractical firearms are so very snazzy. Like Vash's big-ass revolver from Trigun. That thing's got style. Or Wolfwood's big cross full of guns. Possibly even cooler.
It doesn't have to be pointy to be fantastical, after all...:)
In the '80s, _Heavy Metal_ magazine ran a multi-part story called "The Jealous God," which featured a very interesting religious model as well as superbly alien fantasy art. The Monk-Knights who number among the story's protagonists have this lethal rubber ball they use at the beginning of the story, and bust out some nifty double-ended polearms in the middle. I really liked the latter weapons, which Darth Maul's double-ended lightsaber brought to my mind many years later.
More recently, I enjoyed the absurd rotating, repeating crossbow featured in the movie _Gladiator_. I can't imagine it working in real life, but it sure looked cool.
The Twelve Swords.
Excalibur.
Galvayra- the Bow of Light from Slayers.
The Yo-YO, or "spindel disks" from the clasic "Cleric Quintet". It really was a weapon in history, abariginal if memory serves.
I saw one in a store in philly that cost 95 dollars and was made of air plane aluminium, could crack a mans head open.
Sweet.
Damn...I just thought of another one from FF8...
Zantetsuken...Odin's sword
Man, I forgot all about Ward's anchor weapon and I never got Odin as a GF. Those games are full of rediculous weapons.
An aluminum yo-yo. That's just cool. I think your right about the weapon being Austrailian Aboriginal.
And Wolfwood's cross is awesome. Speaking of guns there's the jock strap gun from Desperado. He never uses it but you do get to see Selma Hayek "handle" it.
Actually, if you wanna see the crotch-gun in action, watch 'From Dusk 'till Dawn' sometime. Directed by the same guy who did all the El Mariachi movies. That, and it's just wonderful fodder for any modern-horror style game. It's how 'Hunter: The Reckoning' SHOULD go, in my own humble opinion.
And I did forget one other fun little impractical weapon, again, from Anime: Kenshin's reverse bladed pacifist sword thingie. Impossible to make, as I've heard, yet the pinnacle of style for any pacifistic-minded protagonist.
Yeah, as far as Odin goes...
I would sing praises when He 'decided to show up' the first time I played FF8. But after that, he just interfered with valuable-item-collecting. I got REALLY good at junctioning magic and didn't need to use ANY of the GFs after the first disc...
But his SWORD was cool.
Eric the Ranger's magical bow from the D&D cartoon.
Never ran out of arrows, rarely missed, and could do all kinds of special effects on demand. Plus, you didn't have to get close enough for hand-to-hand, which I see as the Lightsaber's only drawback. I want one of those groovy Ranger bows.
Alas, that was really the only magic weapon in the bunch that was worth having. Well, that and Dekion's(sp) sword. (Ten bonus points if you remember who Dekion is.)
Cheers!
I just recently had a character in my game make a samurai form Oriental Adventures that was based on Rioni Kenshin and he had the reversed katana. I ruled that it, by default unless he stated otherwise, did subdual dmage and not lethal.
And it's weird, I'm a big Rodriguez and Tarantino fan but I never saw From Dusk Till Dawn. I'll have to now that i know the jock gun is seen in action.
Someone mentioned the original Final Fantasy for the Nintendo. I say look back at an older game:
THE LEGEND OF ZELDA
8-bit-magic-sword-oldskool-goodness-from-back-in-the-DAY
AaAAH! Aagghh!
The reversed blade katana always confused me as well...I mean, from what I know of how those swords are forged, you'd almost have to forge the sword so it curved slightly backwards before the cooling process...and then you'd somehow have to make the weapon essentially a double-edged katana with one side unsharpened. Now, if I wanted to go the pacifist character route, I'd have an ebony bokken. From what I understand, they're nearly indestructible...and it's quite possible to kill a man with one.
Oh, and as for cool weapons...I liked Auron's sword from FFX. It was a bit impractical, especially with how slender the handle was, but it looked pretty sweet.
Oh, and let's not forget the auto-crossbow from FF6.
Definitely a second on Galvayra from Slayers, too. The thing was like a hand-held tactical nuke.
Oh yeah, one more thing. Well, actually, more than one more thing...
Can any discussion of fantasy weaponry be complete without us paying homage to the Old Master, the venerable and late Tolkien and the singularly awesome array of magic weapons that The West and Valinor gave to us all, from Grond the Hammer of the Underworld to Sting and Orcrist and Glamdring to Baruk Khazad to Narsil/Anduril, I ask you. Can it?
Actually, true homage is due to the mighty sword of HE-MAN! Which, when held aloft while bellowing "I HAVE THE POWER," can really help increase the value of realty developments such as the premium estate Castle Greyskull (really, this was the first "bad-ass" melee weapon of my youth).
Yo Dead-Muncher. So the empty fist is not a weapon now, is it? I offer that anything used to defeat your enemy is a weapon. Any part of the body counts, including the empty fist! I will give that it is not a "gadget," but for insight into the matter, I quote Leonardo from the classic "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II" guest-staring Vanilla Ice. (I know you watched it)
"A ninja's greatest weapon is his mind..."
So there!
How about the Lirpa -- the Vulcan weapon from Star Trek's Classic episode, "Amok Time?" You could cut your opponent in half with one end AND bash the crap out of them with the other!
Hey Sharky...
"Hand to hand. It is the foundation of ALL combat. Only a FOOL trusts his life to a weapon."
Name that game.
Speaking of Star Trek, we can't forget the Bat'leth. The two handed Klingon sword.
Man, I'm a dork.
And, Sharky, you may be suprised to learn that I not only have seen TMNT2 but I own not only that but all three on dvd.
Dekion was another guy from the D&D cartoon -- he was the skeletal knight who had to redeem his honor (at which point he got his flesh back). Really cool guy and I don't know how they got away with having the kids run around with the undead in an 80's cartoon.
True confession. I liked Dekion so much that I incorporated him into a string of D&D adventures (not that long ago, either).
Here goes nothing.
FF8:
Odin was okay, but his successor was far greater. He had the tsantesuken, the excalibur, and two others that he ididn't use often enough for me to remember. However, you had to kill odin to get him, which made you feel kind of bummed, until you saw the new guy.
FF9: Amarant's Kaiser claw, and the Invincible's (It's an airship) really-big-city-blowing-up-really-really-big cannon. Amarant's kaiser claw is cool only because he is the one wearing it, but someone here mentioned monks and I thought if hand-to-hand was placed as a personal favorite, then you can't neglect the killer carnage and mayhem that ensues when a martial artist straps on some high-powered brass knuckles.
Soul Caliber:
Mostly some of the joke weapons, namely Yoshimitsu's shepherding hook and Raphael's cane. Cervante's Nirvana (His gun/dagger) and Nightmare's Faust (A big slab of solid stone with a hilt attached) are also cool, and Ivy's whip-sword combo (specifically the rose-shaped one and the Demon tail) are also incredibly grand tools of destruction.
Tekken:
Yoshimitsu's lightsaber/katana may be more sci fi than fantasy, but it's still very cool.
Other:
Dorian Grey's sword/cane
well armedly yours,
Theo
Hmmmmm,
the BFG from Doom was always among my faves, as was Dante's final weapon from Devil May Cry.
Lightsabers, gunblades, chakras and the blade-thingy from Krull were way cool, but the Sword of Omens (Thundercats) has to be the most versatile weapon from a TV show.
Come on,
you get 'sight beyond sight', the ability to fire the odd energy beam (when the mood strikes you) and you can throw up your gang sign and reflect it on the sky. Not only that, but you can TRIPLE the length of your blade on demand. Lion-O was pimp.
Theo,
I guess our individual Odin vs. Gilmaresh experiences were different (I actually just started playing FF8 again for the hell of it). For me, Odin ALWAYS cut the beasties into pieces. Gilmaresh, well, MY Gilmaresh seemed to favor that worthless sword "Excalipoor" more than ANY of the other three. But, like I said before, I don't need EITHER of them anymore...
I just thought of another weapon. If any of you have seen the anime movie "SPRIGGAN" the main character receives a special combat knife from a scientist. And, well they don't SAY it, but...its made of Adamantium...THEY JUST DON'T TELL YOU. I mean...it cuts clean through a giant cyborg's arm! Like butter!
Hmm...
*Adding to belated X-mas list*
Chainsaw. Chainsaw. Chainsaw. Chainsaw.
And the triple-barreled shotgun from Alone in the Dark: The New Nightmare is just beautiful for zombie killin'.
Yes, I like zombie killin'.
d3yn: I could have cried, I was so happy to see a nod for the Sword of Omens.
Those 80's massive toy lines are making a nice retro showing with the youth of today (2004 makes it 20+ years since most of these toys released). I saw a kid wearing a Snake Eyes leather bomber-jacket the other day, and I just had to pump my fist in celebration. And EateroftheDead, here's one for you: The neighbors daughter has an old-school Megatron backpack!
Now there was one slammin' weapon for the ages ... Megatron himself!!! Sweet jeezus, jus' like it wo yessa' day... mmm mm!
It's all about the weapons-grade guitar.
Pool cues're damn cool too.
And for the last word on big swords, check out Kliff Undersn from the Guilty Gear series.
And just so no one forgets: MONOWIRE!
And I can't believe no one's mentioned orbital lasers yet!
Haven't you ever seen Akira of Bubblegum Crisis?
Hey, Capn'. What was that game anyhow?
Lord Raptor's Chainsaw and Huitzil were grand weapons too. Did someone already mention Donovan's sword? I just did. It's a sword that can actually scowl at you! That be cool. That be vrai cool, mes amis.
About FF 8:
Yes, Gilgamesh used excalibur far too often. Odin always used Tzantzetsuken, to the best of my understanding. Does anybody rememeber what theother two swords were? Did he even use them? Any body here who works for squaresoft or at least happens to remember, please fill us in.
Pointedly yours, Theophenes
How can you not know Gil's swords? Sheesh. Anyway, their names are (from weakest to strongest) Excalipur, Excalibur, Masamune (how can you forget that?) and Zantetzuken.
I just don't know how I forgot about Wolfwood's cross-gun. Now THAT'S a concealable weapon!
Oh, and don't forget the holy-poisoned-Unnatural Ax of Doom. I'd love one of those.
Masamune in FF1 was by far the coolest incarnation of that most bad-ass of video game swords. It just romps the shit out of Warmech, if you were smart enough to go and get it before you run the possibility of foghting him. He was the coolest bad guy. Chaos was a wimp, I kicked his ass in no time, but Warmech I had to try a few times before I got him. My Black Mage's Lit3 made pretty quick work of him along with the Masamune. Man, makes me want to fire up my emulator and go at that game again.
Mad Max's fly swatter knife... Why? Cause he was unarmed!
EaterOfTheDead mentioned the Bat'leth, but let's not forget the Mek'leth, looks kinda like half a bat'leth. And the Jem Had'r blade was pretty cool too.
CRICKET BATS BABY!!
Two flat surfaces and two narrow, bone shattering sides. w00t
I'll try to list some stufff not previously mentioned...
Dynasty warriors: Lu Bu's badass halberd (sky scorcher? I forget) as whell as Zhen Ji's flute (just for room-clearin' abilities by itself) Sun Shang Xiang's twin chakrams were kinda cool, too. there were plenty of other amazing weapons in the game, but I can't think of any off the top of my head
FF series: gotta go with Tunberry's little knife. that thing will MESS YOU UP. other faves include Kain's dragoon lance (cuz he could jump. heh) and Setzer's cards (cuz just DAMN that's cool. not to mention I saw a set of rectangular throwing blades at a store once that were painted like a deck o' cards. I would have bought them, but I think I was about 10 years old at the time.)
CV:SotN: Alucard's shield/shield rod combo. perhaps it was cheating but it really made everything sit up and notice (hell, even the sword guardians would fall after a little while with that thing attacking them.) I also gotta mention the shoten (basically a big kukri that returned when you threw it) and...uh... I'll probably think of a lot more in about ten minutes
Bubblegum Crisis: Priss's motoslave, as well as her fist thing, Linna's razor ribbons were cool if impractical, Nene's miniature railguns, and, my personal favorite, Leon's revolver that used rounds so big that it only had three chambers. If I'm not mistaken, it was a webley horse pistol (or was based on one)
Ghost in the Shell: one word, fuchikoma.
LotR, the movies: The Witch-king's flail. that was so cool, I just wish he'd gotten the amidexterity and two weapon fighting feats (unless he was a high-level ranger and just accidentally put on all that heavy armor) Legolas' knives were really cool too, though underused. (I kept seein' them just sitting there next to his quiver, waiting...)
I think I could list about a hundred different sources bearing thousands of weapons, but, in the words of the Bard, "brevity...wit" so I think I'll just pack it in there.
GAH! I forgot to mention the one thing I wanted to write in the first place! This may be somewhat obscure, because the movie it comes from is kind of...not...good. In the sweeping epic masterwork of cinema known only as "Mom and Dad Save the World" there is the most diabolical weapon known to man. it is called a light grenade. The light grenade is designed to instantly vaporize anyone who picks it up. Here's the diabolical part, tho', it has printed right on it "pick me up" so people do. and they are vaporized. EVIL!!!
Hold on... GUNBLADES ARE REAL?
Good God, that one slipped past me! Someone care to enlighten me?
And doursalmon, on the subject of cool weapons...
1. Darth Maul's double-edged lightsaber. Ridiculously cool, and in the hands of the god of swords, Ray Park, brilliant to watch. Probably impossible to use though. Every time you tried to do the cool spinning move you'd cut your legs off. Which, I reckon is what Darth Maul did in the end.
2. Narsil. Brilliant name, first and formost, just the word, 'Narsil'. Sound sharp and spiky and nasty. Anduril or whatever they called it at the end? Rubbish. Give me Narsil any day. Narsil. Narsil. Narsil. GOD, I LOVE SAYING NARSIL!
3. Sting. Useful little blade, Sting. Glows blue when orcs are about. Also works for uruk-hai, too, which is helpful. Another great name, as well, hampered slightly by the slightly rubbish singer of the same name, which can be mildly amusing at times. Whenever I watch Two Towers on DVD and see the bit where Frodo's holding his sword to Gollum's throat and he says "This is Sting..." I can't help but shout out "WALKING ON DA MOON!" and then giggle like a mad thing.
4. The sais used by Ankh-Sun-Amun and Nefertiri in The Mummy Returns. Cool.
Yo Dead! FF Masamune on the thief who had advanced to ninja - coolest weapon ever! I can't believe you remember that! FF was the ultimate RPG and IMO kicked the hell out of Ultima and Dragon Warrior. I wish they could make a new FF that was just as universal and customizable as that first one. The rest have been too character driven.
Ahhh ... four nobodies show up to save the world. If you desired, make a different party structure every time you started ... sob ... sniffle ...
Hmm...
I dunno why I didn't think of this before...Shiva from FFX. Instead of wielding a weapon, I think I'd rather just summon a sexy, scantily-clad ice goddess to do my fightin' for me. Yeah...and afterwards...
*evil grin*
I know how to make her melt...
Just don't get your tongue stuck, Captain Ass.
Tongue?
No, no, no!
I'm talking about a large, phallic-shaped hot-water bottle!
I kicked the hell out of Dragon Warrior too. FF3 was like 1 in the way you could make any party you wanted only you could switch their classes and stuff. It's impossible to get FF3 in the US outside of an emulator, however.
And who the hell drools over the Shiva in FFX when you have the lucious Lulu right there with her cute little dolls? There are many places I wouldn't mind having my tounge on her...
Topic, right. Who besides a crazy, yet extremely sexy, Black Mage uses dolls for wepons? I was never more afraid of little, stuffed Moogle then when weilded in the hands of a master. I can't say enough about Lulu. Maybe I should write a stupid song about her like Olly did about Marina.
Ah...Lulu...
With that plunging neck line and that little opening in the front of her skirt...
*boi-yoi-yoi-yoi-yoing*
MILF! MILF!
Eater, the musical masterpeice that was the Marina song was not stupid! It was a heartfelt masterpeice about my undying love for her... until the next hot chick came along.
On the subject of Final Fantasy chicks, I was always rather fond of Quistis from FFVIII. Maybe a little bit old for me, but that whip action... Aye Chihauhau!
Anybody here play Bloody Roar: Primal Fury? I was always rather fond of Alice in that game. With her cute little wooly hate and scarf, and a skirt which was kind of defeating the object of staying warm.
My mate was more fond of Uriko, the half-beast, but she was always a little too young, and childish for me. The dirty paedophile.
Quistis...OLD??? Dude, she's like...17. How is she too--
Oh...I see...
*dirty look*
YOU'RE SICK, YOU ARE A BAD MAN!
And Morbus, Lulu is NOT a milf...she had no kids...even though judging by the size of her gonzagas, one might be inclined to think so...
SPOILER. Captain: incorrect. Lulu is pregnant with Wakka's kid in FFX-2, and one of the endings is the birth and display.
Argh! Damn you! I havn't played FFX-2 yet. What is the cool goth chick doing with the dumb jock? That doesn't happen in reality. So I can continue to imagine she's mine.
Quistis was 18. I'm a dork for knowing this, I am aware, no need to point it out.
Eater: it's not that huge of a spoiler, really. Wakka and Lulu were "together", at least in an "they've got more of a history than anyone else does" sorta way in FFX, and very early in FFX-2, you visit their home in Besaid (I think), where they explain further. The ending, although true, could easily be inferred from "what would the player want to see?".
I can see that. I havn't even purchased FFX-2 yet, nor have I beaten FFX or even played it beyond leaving Besaid.
Oh and Morbus, how the hell did you get Disobey so damn popular? I'm looking for marketing pointers.
I can see that. I havn't even purchased FFX-2 yet, nor have I beaten FFX or even played it beyond leaving Besaid.
Oh and Morbus, how the hell did you get Disobey so damn popular? I'm looking for marketing pointers.
LULU NOOOO!!!
She's just faking it for the money! Wait a minute? WHAT MONEY?!? Wakka's has gone from poor to 'poe'
...and Quistis was 17!! I remember the conversation she had with Squall in the secret area @ Balamb Garden. She joined SeeD at 15, got her instructor's license at 16. And she BARELY had it a year when she lost it in the game.
And you thought YOU were a dork!
*flexes dork muscles*
(sigh) So...Mr. Mac-Daddy Wakka...what was it like...?
Wakka: It was tighter than sin's grip, ya?
According to the FFVIII Official Startegy Guide form Brady Games it says she's 18. I remember the conversation but not the ages she said.
::passes Dork-Of-The-Year medal to Ass::
You've earned it, my friend.
Selphie was much more fun than quistis in my opinion... had more personality. Quistis seemed to always be so incredibly depressed. Rinoa was just silly.
Back to the point of weapons...
Ramuh's staff from FF9 was fun. Mokujin was more a golem than a weapon, but he still could still bash shiva easily enough.
The Excalibur II.....now that was a sword!
Wakka's blitzball......definitely a creative approach....
Of course, my real favorite, come to think of it, is a Lantern's ring. No, strike that, Sinestro's ring.
Well-armedly yours,
Thephenes
I do believe that I just read more about female weaponry than lethal weaponry (I know, I know - same thing, a ha). But the best ... uh ... cannons? ... belong to Marisol of SSX, the snowboarding game.
WAIT A MINUTE! MAN! WTF!!! We're talking about binary breasts? Oh, the depths of shame know no end for us ...
And Cap'n sir, if you ever do Wakka that funny again, I will send you my paramedics bill for resuscitation!
Quistis is 18? No kidding? I always thought she was in her late twenties-early thirties. Shows how much attention I pay to things.
How could I forget Selphie? She's one of the cutest chicks in that game!
And Shark, on the 'digital cannons' front, Jenny from Bloody Roar: Primal Fury blows Marisol clean out of the water. Hers are ridiculously huge.
Ouch ! The crotch gun is pretty silly. Can you imagine what the recoil would do to you ?! 'He this is a .45 magnum. The mostpowerful crotchgun in the world. If I actualy fire it I will be singing sophrano for the rest of my life . I don't feel that lucky punk !'
My list of fantasy weapons which are fairly practical:
(1) Top of the list comes the klingon Batlac. Its basically a quarterstaff with a single wide blade mounted on the front and protruding into two sweeping points right and left. It can be used as a spear, axe, quarterstaff, bayonet, depending on how you hold it, and I'm sure that you could base a practical martial art around it.
(2) Next I like the idea of claws, as used by wolverine, or ninja bearclaws. Claws are a natural weapon that are hardly used by humans, perhaps because they are short range and using a longer, heavier, weapon gives you more reach, power, and leaverage. I think they could work, but a knife is just as good, and probably easier to handle.
(3) Finally, I pay tribute to the second world war 'Wheezes and Dodges Department' set up by the British to come up with unusual weapons and battlefield inventions. Among their many inventions they came up with:
(a) The rocket powered exploding wheel to clear beach obstacles.
(b) the tracked wheelbarrow stretcher to evacuate wounded across soft sand.
(c) The canvas and wood portable bridge which could hold the weight of a loaded lorry for 2 hours.
(d) most impressively, the pigeon guided anti ship cruise missile, which never saw production. Actually the animal behavioralist who suggested this was american.
I heard that, during the war, you Yanks tried, unsuccessfully, to train bats to drop bombs. Ya big dummies.
No, no, no...Olly...
They tried to stick bombs IN bats...ya know...like sticking firecrackers up a locust's butt...
*BUZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz...........BANG!!!*
That official strategy guide PURPOSLY made that typo, to make all the gamer-pervs out there think that Quistis was legal, so they wouldn't feel uncomfortable about it...
BUT NOT ME! I KNEW THE TRUTH! Every time I play the game over again, at the beginning where they have that cinematic sequence where she comes into the clinic and does that "sigh-with-a-smile" thing...I always hear that song "She's only 17" in my head.
hehe
*evil voice*
...Hellooooo...little girl
Since nobody is talking...
I just finished playing FF8 again. This time around I had all the party members at level 100 by around the end of disc three. Now, when I fought Ultimecia there was a spell that I could draw from her called "Apocalypse" that was never there before. Did anyone know about this magic? I sure as hell didn't...too bad its only at the end of the game. I bet it junctions like a crazy mo-fo...
Also, I'm trying to figure out what areas use which rules in the Triple Triad. I'm wanting to change the trade rule to DIFF or ALL...and nothing more.
I'm at the end of FFVIII for the first time. Ultimecia keeps kicking the crap out of me so I'm running around trying to level. Squall is about level 70 and my other two, Zell and Quistis, are about 60-65. I'm gonna try it again after I hit about 75. I figure it should work, cause that's where I was at when I killed Sephiroth in FFVII.
Yeah, its do-able at lev-75. Just be sure to go the Island Closest to Hell...you'll level up faster. If you've never been there, all the monsters are big and lev-100. Be ready to fight Malboros...they're not the worst, though.
Before you do, you should stock up on a handy spell called 'Meltdown' you can go to the area just outside Trabia Garden and draw the spell from a monster called a Gayla.
While I'm at it, if you didn't stock up on the Aura spell from the last fight with Seifer, you should 'Mug' steel pipes from Wendigos, and refine them into Aura stones, which work just like the magic.
Do you have everyone's final weapons?
Final Weapons??????
I was using the wonderful Brady Games strategy guide to help me through the game. I do beleive that this guide should win the award for the worst strategy guide in history.
It didn't tell me that once I got inside the Lunatic Pandora that I wouldn't be able to get out again. So I went in while still on the third disc thinking I'd have plenty of time to go around and get everything on disc four. Things didn't work out quite so nicely. The only good weapon I have is Zell's best gloves. I don't think they're his ultimate weapon, however.
As far as leveling I'm having lots of luck on the bridge outside where you fight Ultimecia. The tiger things and tonberrys are giving me plenty of xp and I can draw some pretty useful spells from them. The only magic I tend to use in combat is healing usually. From time to time I use haste and slow but mostly I just GF the hell out of the bad guys.
The ERGHEIZ gloves are Zell's final weapons (the red ones). As far as his special attacks go, you could buy ALL the Combat King magazines from the Esthar book store. I prefer Irvine over Zell in the boss battles, because of his wide variety of ammo. DARK ammo inflicts every status effect, the FAST ammo is badass if you can hit the trigger really fast, and if you fight any Tonberrys you can refine their knives into AP ammo...each shot does 9999 damage.
On disc four, the only way you can shop is if you have the Tonberry GF and the Doomtrain GF. Tonberry has an ability that allows you to shop for better item, like GF ability scrolls.
Did you know that you can STILL use the Ragnarok in the time-compressed world?
Have ALL your GFs leared ALL their abilities? Did you draw ALL the main GFs from Ultimecia's guardians?
If you did not fight Ultima Weapon in the Deep Sea Research Center, that is really the first place that you can draw the Ultima magic. That's also where you get Bahamut and Eden...which both rock. Bahamut has the 'rare item' ability which is great when looking for 'weapon upgrade' items...
I cannot stress the importance of the 'Meltdown' magic. You should use it on every boss and tough moster. It junctions VERY well with your Vitality. In battle, if you don't have the magic, Quistis' ACID blue magic will result in the same effect on enemies (Vit-0). The monsters turn kinda purpley when it works.
I dunno what you Strat-guide says about the magic, but the magic that junctions to your stats the BEST are: Triple, Pain, Flare, Meltdown, Meteor, Ultima, & Aura. These are a few others like Tornado, Float and Death which work well with Spd, Eva and Luck.
And you COULD leave the lunatic pandora anytime before you fight Adel...
Those are the gloves I have on Zell, I wasn't sure if there was one that was better. My other character's have crap for weapons. I think Rinoa is the only other one with an ultimate weapon but she's only level 22.
I didn't know I could draw all the GF's I missed untill I was fighting Tiamat so the only one that I missed that I got to get back was Eden.
If I go to the Ragnarock can I still refine weapons and buy items? That's my big beef right now is that I'm running low on healing and my weapons suck but I can't go to towns in the time-compressed world.
Man VII was so much better.
Oh yeah, I got all of the Combat King mags but missed a bunch of the Pet Pals, I never use Rinoa anyway so I didn't bother.
My Blue Magic list for Quistis is huge and Acid is on the list. As far as junctioned magic I tend to use the ones you listed with the exception of Meltdown as the only place I've found it is to draw it from Ultimecia and It's a little late to junction by then. The other one I junction alot is Curaga it gived mad HP bonuses. Because of it Squall and Zell are both max on HP and Quistis is getting there.
Irvine I thought sucked right from the begining. I only used him when I had to so he's only level 17.
If you have the Tonberry GF you can shop from the 'Ability' section on the main menu, if you have the Doomtrain GF you can upgrade weapons from the same place. The abilities are called 'Call Shop' and 'Junk Shop'
You should get the Ragnarok simply because you can again travel to different areas all over the world, and level your party, GFs and the GF abilities WAY faster than where you are. If you look on your belarged world map, that blinking red light is the Ragnarok. You just have to find a way to get to it, using Ultimecia's portals and Chocobos (you can ride them across shallow water). There's a portal that goes to the Centra Continent, you can walk to a Chocobo Forest that's hidden by some mountains (Northern Centra). You can pay the kid in the forest to catch a Chocobo for you.
If I remember correctly, Ultimecia has sealed ALL the cities and towns...but the RUINS are still unblocked. If this is correct, than you can still go to Tears Point(for Doomtrain), Centra Ruins(for Odin & Tonberry), Cactuar Island (for Cactuar) and the Deep Sea Research Center (for Bahamut & Ultima weapon). You will have to FIGHT all of the GFs except Doomtrain. I bet you can follow your Strat-guide on acquiring these GFs. There's no real need to fight Ultima Weapon since you already have Eden, so unless you need the Ultima magic for junctioning, don't bother.
If you do anything, get the Ragnarok, and go to the following places...
Snowfield outside Trabia Garden
Fight a Gayla, stock up on Meltdown (all party members).
Island Closest to Hell
A small island off the West-most tip of Galbadia. Its the best place to level up your party. Juntion Blizzaga to your elem-attack and Drain to your stat-attack. That way your party will maintain their HP. There's only (1) monster on the island that Drain won't affect (Blue Dragon) luckily its one of the weakest. Like I said before, there ARE Malboros on the island, so junction magic like Berserk, Confuse, Sleep and Pain to your stat-defense (the first 3 are the most important). ALL the monsters are Level 100, so they're all tough, so Meldown makes the fights MUCH MUCH easier. One way to tell if you're at a reasonably kick-ass level is if you can smack a T-Rexuar ONCE and do 9999 damage.
Cactuar Iasland
Small desert island just off the Centra/Esthsar area (that desert you run across to get the Ragnarok, Cactuar Island is JUST on the other side. Fight Cactuars, get 20 GF Ability Points for each one. Junction Water to elem-attack...and you gotta be quick!
One last thing...get Sqall's Lionheart weapon. The 'Lionheart' limit break does around 150,000 damage!
uh...that would be "SqUall"
IT HAS BEEN CONFIRMED!!
I checked last night, you CAN go to all the ruins in the time-compressed world. So...GO! If your BRADY Strat-guide is the 'official' one, the tactics for the GFs should give you a good idea of what to expect...
Odin (Mug the Luck-J from this guy!)
Tonberry (Tonberry King)
Doomtrain (need Tonberry to get items needed)
Cactuar (weak vs. Water)
Bahamut
Use Meltdown on ALL battles, with Tonberry, Cactuar and Bahamut, use Aura and Limit Breaks. You probably wanna go to the mainland desert near Cactuar Island, to learn new abilities FAST. Stay farily close to the edge of the continent, though. There are Sphinxaras in the middle of the desert and they're more of a pain (absorb Water). I would recommend you NOT fight the Cactuar GF (on the island) until you have Squall's Lionheart.
My strat guide says how to find the Ragnarok but it also says thatn the only reason is to find the Queen of Cards to get some rare cards. Sense I gave up on playing Triple Triad really early I didn't bother finding it.
It also says fairly early that if you miss and GFs on your way through you can get them later in Ultimecia's Castle but doesn't say it in the boss fights towards the end. So I missed all of them except Eden. That guide really sucks.
It's good to know that I can go back and get most of the GFs that I missed in the side quests. If I get the ones you listed I'll have all of them except Carbuncle. Also by then I'll probably be at a decent level to kick Ultimecia's ass.
Eater:
Take my advice. Get the Lionheart blade. It's in the Weapons monthly of AUG. Found at the gargoyle statue in Trabia. From there I think you'll figure out what to do. Next stock up on lot's of Aura. Practice on your trigger pulls. Once you have perfected your Renzokuken by using aura to get it. Go take out Ultimecia using the aura on yourself. If you get a perfect on your trigger pulls you should be able to unlock Lionheart which does somewhere from 110,000 to about 120,000 dmg. She will begin to spout all sorts of doomsaying stuff. Just attack with your characters between spurts of her nonsense. She will fall.
See Ya!
I've now come to the realization that I have played FF8 too many times. I just started playing it again over the weekend...
Squall was at level-78 before the end of disc-1...wow...
By the way, Eater...
Like I said before, if you missed ANY magazines in the game, you can get them from the Esthar Book store (via Tonberry)
Okay, so aside from the Final Fantasy fanboy geeking, back to the original actual *question*...
Mo mentioned the Klingon Batlac. First off, a "real" martial art has already been designed around something similar. The Batlac is basically a Swiss halberd variant, and halberds are probably one of the great unsung historical weapons. You should be able to find "Jeu de la Hache" in translation somewhere on the web, and you'll be surprised by just what you can do with a axe/spear/hook on a stick. It's (literally) a Swiss army polearm. ;-)
While people have been going on about CRPGs and such (far too much, IMHO - can we stay on topic, folks?) I feel compelled to mention that you only need to look to actual history for some awfully interesting weapons (the chakram, for instance, is a real medieval Indian weapon). The best source for this sort of thing is probably Palladium's big blue Book of Weapons, Armor and Castles, which has a lot of good illustrations of really nifty things that were real at one point or another (I'm personally skeptical that anyone ever actually used a lantern shield, but whatever).
Sticking with the historical theme, a good book on the weapons used in Imperial China will showcase some of the more bizarre things people have tried to kill each other with. I'm personally partial to the various Wind Fire Wheel designs, and the Nine Dragon Trident definitely falls under the category of Things You Are Likely To Hurt Yourself With. The RPG Jadeclaw has excellent illustrations of a lot of medieval China weapons, and more importantly a rundown of common combat maneuvers for them. The weapon's only half the story; you can chop at someone clumsily with a halberd - or you can read Jeu de la Hache.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Japanese ninja yet; there's an abundance of interesting books available on the historical weapons they used. The historical ninja were thieves, assassins, and spies - not invincible shadow warriors - and many of the devices they used look like something from a 17th century Japanese Q Branch.
Updating things a bit, any good book on the history of firearms should include lots of amusing attempts to combine guns with other things, like knives, swords, axes, lanterns, belt buckles, and pretty much anything else that was handy. I have to confess my favorite is an item from the Ripley's Believe It or Not museum - a cross gun included in a (purportedly) authentic vampire hunter's kit. It's an oversized heavy wood crucifix with the end sharpened for use as a stake, but there's a fold down trigger/handle and the thing shoots wooden bullets (included in the kit, and apparently consecrated).
So I'd recommend turning off the PS2 for a while and heading down to the library (remember those?) and looking up a few good books on real historical weapons.
Daniel
P.S. I have to comment on the Klingons - I know they're every geek's favorite vicarious warrior race, but the weapon designs are simply stupid. They're just not usable by any humanoid race. The Bat'leth, in particular, will either cause you to cut your own head off, grievously expose your centerline, or unbalance you in a potentially fatal way, depending on which of the various ways they're depicted as being used. even for a race as physically resilient as the Klingons, these weapon designs are suicidal. I prefer to assume that the currently seen designs of Klingon weaponry are heavily stylized and ceremonial, much like shinai, and not intended for anything but display and ritual combat.
Fanboy geeking???????
Geez........
I'm not sure if I should be insulted or not.
Okay, I decided I'm not.
Hi Daniel Ream,
Good comments. You obviously know quite a bit about old weaponry, but I have to disagree with some of your opinions. I've also studied a lot about weaponry, martial arts theory, and I've practiced several martial arts, although I've never trained in any knd of weapon so my knowledge there is all theoretical.
Anyway. Point by point:
(1) the Klingon Batlac: Its not the halberd. Certainly not the swiss halberd. The swiss used a halberd with a long shaft for use in mass formations. The Batlac is a shorter weapon for close infighting. Now the Japanese use of the halberd is more flexible than the swiss, but its still a relatively long shaft with only one blade. Shinmen Musashi in his famous 'book of five rings' describes it as 'primarily a defensive weapon for the battlefield.' The Batlac has much more in common with the two handed quarterstaff, which is for close to medim fighting, used 2 handed with either end being useful.
(2) the chakram: true there are one or two examples of the chakram in Indian museums, but its so rare that we can't really speak of it as a practical weapon. Most likely it was a custom built item for some lord.
(3) I agree with you that there are lots of stylized weapons in history that are useless practically. One example is in the Tower of London where there is a collection of two handed swords 7 or 8 feet in length. Obviously no one could have weilded them seriously, they were probably ceremonial.
(4) The japanese ninja: Now we have to remember that the information we have about the ninja is all heresay and probably contains much propaganda and misinformation. As far as I know the real ninja didn't run schools of techniques, and the modern ninja masters and schools are just guys who have tried to recreate the legend. How useful these weapons are in reality is debateable.
(5) You said : 'The Bat'leth, in particular, will either cause you to cut your own head off, grievously expose your centerline' .
Now to anyone who doesn't know, centreline theory in martial arts says that most of your vulnerable points are placed on a line running through the centre of your body, and that if you stand face-on to an opponent, then you expose your vulnerable points and make a larger target than standing side-on and also find it more difficult to shuffle bckwards and forwards. All true, but you have to remember several points.
Centre-line theory is a relatively modern development in martial arts, and is not universally acepted. You see it in boxing, fencing, whin chun, modern kickboxing , but much less in traditional martial arts such as thai kickboxing, japanese sword fighting, quarterstaff fighting , where you tend to stand more square on to the opponent. There are reasons for this. Fistly, it just happens to be a modern development, but also Centreline theory works best in the sports hall where there is good footing, no obstacles, even ground. In this environment it is easy to stand side-on and take small shuffling steps forwards and back. In a more practical environment, a slippery, uneven, grassy battlefield, littered with objects, it is much more practical to walk in a normal way, advancing forwards with a normal stride. Shinmen Musashi makes exactly this point in his 'book of five rings'.
Exposing the centreline does not of itself make a weapon useless. The english quarterstaff was used as a practical weapon for hundeds of years, and is used square on exposing the centreline.
So I hope you find these points reasonable. If you're interested, the two books I find really useful for martial arts theory are :
(1) 'The book of 5 rings' by the samurai shinmen musashi. very respected in Japan. just put that name in your search engine to find out more about him.
(2) 'The Tau of Jeet Kune Do' by Bruce Lee.
Intelligent discusson! W00t.
First off, to EateroftheDead42 - I have nothing against fanboy geeking, as long as it's on topic. one might surmise that lengthy descriptions of obscure halberdier techniques are also, technically, fanboy geeking. ;-)
To Mo: nice to meet another student of the militarily arcane! To address your disagreements:
1) To make sure we're talking about the same thing, I tried to find a picture of a Batlac for posting purposes, and I can't (the only reference Google has is to this forum! ;-). If we're talking about the chonnaQ, as depicted at http://www.klingonempire.org/contentid-10.html, say, then it's pretty clear that the chonnaQ does resemble a Swiss halberd, although that curved beak on the back reminds me more of certain polearm variants designed for unhorsing knights. And clearly the prop designers added all sort of hooks and barbs and assorted silliness to make the thing look more dangerous.
Now, the Swiss had more than one style of halberd, and the long pike-like affair you're referring to *was* used primarily for infantry field operations, but there were shorter, more maneuverable versions in use (most books refer to these simply as poleaxes, even though they're obviously Swiss halberds with shorter shafts). Somehwere on haca.org you should be able to find Jeu de la hache, which describes an assortment of combat maneuvers usable with a Swiss halberd in one-on-one duels. Note that this kind of duel pretty much never happened outside the context of formal tournaments and was rarely lethal - JdlH does not in any way describe how halberds were really used on a battlefield, say. But the original context was weapons for use in *fantasy* environments, and some of the combat techniques used in halberd duels would be Way Cool if used by a typical fantasy warrior, to whom the laws of physics and anatomy don't apply.
2) As for the chakram, my point was simply that it wasn't an original creation, but rather a historical one. I also have severe doubts a sharp iron frisbee could be thrown hard enough to do any reasonable damage on a battlefield. Regardless, the Xena writers made it a signature weapon by playing up what was fun about it, and RPG players can do the same with weirdass weapons like the mongwanga (which I don't believe could "sever a man's leg at 20 paces", either).
3) Remember to distinguish between weapons that were ceremonial, in the sense that they were never intended for use in *any* real fighting, and weapons that were impractical for military use but were used in tournament situations, where the fighting was real but highly formalized and the risk of real injury slight. There are records of tourney events fought with those monster two-handers, and while they were no doubt highly entertaining, no professional soldier would ever use one on a real battlefield.
4) As a former student of tokagure-ryu taijutsu, I can say that there *are* real, historically verified records of what the ninja did, how they did it, and what they taught. But there aren't many, and it's mostly pretty mundane (the ninja were mundane theives, assassins, and spies for hire, and they were very good at propaganda intended to scare people). Again, regardless of the historicity or actual affectiveness of such weapons, gadgetry, and techniques, they make excellent fodder for *fantasy*.
Case in point: you don't throw shuriken at people. They don't work. What you do is throw them into the ground in the dark so people chasing you step on them and hurt themselves. But it's much more fun if your character can take someone's head off or eye out with a well-aimed shuriken.
5) "Centreline theory...you see it...much less in traditional martial arts such as thai kickboxing, japanese sword fighting, quarterstaff fighting , where you tend to stand more square on to the opponent."
Bear in mind that these arts you've mentioned are sporting forms. Muay thai has never been a real battlefield art, quarterstaff fighting is a training pastime for knights (and later peasants) but not a lethal fighting art. Kendo does not make much use of centreline theory, but kendo also ceremonializes the art to an unuseful degree. Kenjutsu, the actual combat art, places a much greater emphasis on defense of the centreline (most kenjutsu opening stances are side-on, not forward) because quick thrusts and jabs are more common in real combat than the highly ritualized kendo form. Note also that whether or not armour was part of a warriors standard attire makes a *huge* difference; if you can expect to be wearing an iron breastplate, who cares about the centreline. Most samurai trained under the assumption that armour would be worn. Most light swordplay styles which developed in cultures where armour was not common (Renaissance Europe, Celestial China, most of Indonesia) place a greater emphasis on protecting the vital organs.
footnotes) Yes, I have copies of both. In the context of the current discussion, though, how weapons were actually used historically is less important to me than how some historical weapons could be used in a fantasy environment (cf. shuriken, above).
Good talking to you!
Daniel
Reply to Daniel Ream,
Hi Daniel,
1) You said:"To make sure we're talking about the same thing, I tried to find a picture of a Batlac for posting purposes"
I'm sorry. This is probably my fault. I am misnaming the weapon. Its that curved Bow shaped blade that is commonly used by all klingons, Warf and Dex both use it. I'm not sure of the spelling.
2) I agree
3) I agree
4) We seem to be agreed overall.
5) I take your points but re-iterate, there are examples of practical fighting styles that don't use centreline theory. This doesn't make these styles and weapons impractical or useless. Perhaps they give away a bit in defence.
Note:- I prefer to keep the weapons in my campaign realistic and practical. Just a personal preference. If someone wants to introduce a variant they have to convince me.
Regards,
Mo
1) Are you talking about a *Bat'leth*? Hell, no wonder we're confused! According to a Trekkie I know, the Bat'leth design was actually derived from Chinese wind fire wheels. Personally, this makes no sense to me, as wind fire wheels are usable and Bat'leths, well, aren't. While someone may some day develop a fighting style for the Bat'leth that wouldn't immediately get you killed, what we've been shown of how the Bat'leth is used is comical at best and suicidal at worst. As an amateur historical combat enthusiast, I can't conceive of any effective way to wield a Bat'leth in combat, especially not when it's been established that the Klingons also have swords.
Re:Note - As a student and occasional practitioner of historical fighting styles, I have to admit that while "realistic and practical" is interesting from an academic POV, as entertainment goes it's dead boring. Even gladiator fights had to be jiggered to make them a) last and b) exciting to watch. I used to be a stickler for historical accuracy, but I've since adopted the stance that it is more important that the game be entertaining than realistic. And that means rejecting strict practicality in favour of a little (or a lot) of "flash".
Daniel
Daniel,
We shall have to disagree on both your last 2 points.
I do agree that the Bat'leth drills displayed in 'Star Trek' are silly. But I think that the Bat'leth might be weilded quite effectively using the same sort of style as an English quarter staff ie no fancy stuff, just block and strike. I could be wrong here, you'd have to experiment to be sure. But imagine for a moment being charged by a group of berserk Klingons weilding Bat'leth's. These guys are frothing at the mouth, they have armored tunics, and don't mind if they do get injured. When they get in close its not going to be pretty sword play and parrying. Instead they'll be hacking two handed using both edges of the Bat'leth in succession, getting close, head-butting, biting, knees, elbows etc. I think the Bat'leth could be an effective close quarter terror weapon.
And I still hanker after the "realistic and practical" style of D&D play.
'nuff said?
Mohammed
Mo, have you ever actually handled a Bat'leth? I have, and I've also done some staff work (both English historical and bojutsu). The center of mass for a Bat'leth is about 6" away from where you hold it, which means that no matter how you wield the thing, it's unbalanced. And unlike axes, maces, and other hafted weapons, it's not unbalanced in a way that helps (i.e. results in greater impact force). It's an ungainly, ill-conceived weapon more dangerous to its wielder than anyone else; it was designed to look cool and impress fanboys, not to be a useful close combat weapon.
As for your hypothetical situation, I'll bite: You have just described a combat style similar to Scottish highlanders and Iron Age Celtic warriors. On my side of the field I'll take the same number of Roman legionnaires. I believe, with good historical precedent, that the legionnaires would chop the Klingons to ground beef. Conan, Braveheart, and Star Trek chronology to the contrary, blind savagery is *not* a substitute for actually knowing what you're doing.
If you're concerned about the advantage the legionnaire's formation tactics would give them - well, *duh*. You cannot separate the tactics from the weapon. But okay - I'll take any _one_ legionnaire armed with gladius, pilum, scutum, and full lorica segmentata up against any one Klingon armed and armored as you describe above. Again, my money's on Sevinicus Britannicus here.
Klingons may be wildly popular with the Star Trek fanbase, but when considered as actual warriors, both in terms of their tactics and their weaponry, they fail the plausibility test.
Daniel
Does anyone remember that "rocket hammer" from Battle Angel Alita?
I bet that guy could build a fence in NO time...
Is that anything like the Cock Rocket from Orgasmo? Now there was a cool weapon.
Heh Daniel,
I won't put celts versus romans legionaries. instead I'll take a horde of horse archers or maybe english longbowmen. Historically, the worst roman losses were to horse archers in the east. Roman cavalry was never a large component of their force, and heavy footsoldiers can't do much against sustained missile fire.
My ideal ancient army would be pikemen backed by longbowmen. For cavalry I'd have super heavy lancers and light horse-archers. Historically, there was a european count who put together such an ideal army. English, swiss, french, and eastern mercenaries. When it came to actual combat, they all hated each other to such an extent that they ran away without fighting.
sigh, back to the drawing board.
"I won't put celts versus romans legionaries."
Well, I wouldn't either - historically, the Romans chopped them into celtburgers. ;-) My point was just that the Klingons don't make much sense as a "warrior race" - They've been developed to look cool, not to look effective. Races like the Nietzcheans from Andromeda have handled the warrior race notion much more realistically.
As far as ideal armies - you really have to define your technology. If you give the Romans quality steel-forging technology, then a maniple in tortoise formation can advance on a contingent of longbowmen unharmed (contrary to popular history, longbows actually won't penetrate a steel breastplate, even at close range) and then run them down.
Daniel
::contemplates joining the nerd discussion::
Hmmmm, no I've filled my nerd quota for the day.
::turns and very un-nerdishly leaves::
^ stealth dork
To paraphrase Gabe over at Penny Arcade:
"You're making fun of people for being nerdy about ancient weaponry on a BBS dedicated to roleplaying games. Why don't you go ask your girlfirend how cool being a RPG fan writer makes you.
You don't have a girlfriend? That's part of the test."
Daniel
He got you there Eater =) =) =)
The best thing you could say is :
'I withdraw my earlier remark'
Interestingly, Daniel and My Nerdy discussion, points out that two people can be expert in the same subject, and still disagree on plenty of details. Thats whats so good about experimental archeology, where archoelogists try to create the actual tools, weapons, devices of the time and try to reconcile the descriptions of how they were used, with practical experiments. This helps blow a lot of theory out of the water.
For example, a lot of Roman devices work exactly as described, but they had this large wooden caltrop which archeologists always thought was placed at the top of a ditch and rampart. However, when experimental archeologists actually tried using the device, they found it worked so much better placed just before the rampart, so that 3 points were braced against the rampart and 3 points stuck out straight at the enemy. score 1 for experimental archeology.
Similarly, Daniels comments on the tortoise being effective against longbows. I instinctively doubt his claims because I know that:
1) totrtoise was only used in seiges, not practical for moving about the battlefield.
2) Romans never encountered high powered bows.
3) Roman armor was no more than 30% even for the best armored troops, and many more were lightly armed auxillaries.
4) Roman shields were rugularly pierced by pilums, so a high powered longbow arrow should have some effect.
5) Most telling of all, Historically, and experimentally, Roman armies sufferred badly in encounters with horsearchers with relatively weak bows compared to longbows.
But the way to sort out our differences, would be to conduct a few practical experiments. Unfortunately, I suspect that neither of us is an experimental archeologist. =)
Hmmmmmm, yeah, he did get me there.
::engages cloaking device::
I should have just done this to begin with. Jeez, I hope they don't have any of those cool seeking torpedoes from Star Trek V.
Oh and being half Celtic/half Roman (Scottish/Italian) I'd have to say that I'd put my money on the Celts. I know that historicaly the Roman whomped the crap out of the big, drunk galoots but I think they're cooler. How's that for military logic? Eh? That's what I thought.
On March 20, 2004 06:05 PM, EaterOfTheDead said:
Oh and being half Celtic/half Roman (Scottish/Italian) I'd have to say that I'd put my money on the Celts. I know that historicaly the Roman whomped the crap out of the big, drunk galoots but I think they're cooler.
I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Eater. The Celts are cooler (from an RPG perspective) just like the klingons. It doesn't matter if they win, what matters is that they are loud, proud, combative drunken galoots. And that makes them fun to play.
John
Ye speak wisdom, Mo - it's been great chatting with you, btw.
"Similarly, Daniels comments on the tortoise being effective against longbows. I instinctively doubt his claims because I know that:"
I did say that in the context of assuming the Romans have steel-forging technology. With steel, armor technology quickly outpaces weapons tech. Longbows are also not the amazing knight-killers we all once thought; recent experimental archaeology has demonstrated that a longbow even at close range will not pierce a 15th-century breastplate. So I do think that given totally anachronistic technology, the Romans would win. ;-)
And although I'm not an experimental archaeologist, I have participated in the occasional archaeology experiment. It's a freaking blast, btw, if you live in Great Britain you should try and get into it if at all possible. You'll learn loads and have a great story to tell your friends.
Sadly, I live in Canada, so I'm stuck with either black powder or Vikings.
Daniel
Hmm.... did you know that most firearms are illegal in Britain. Even when held securely in a shooting club. About the only way to shoot is to join a club using anachronistic weapons such as bows, crossbows, or black powder muzzle loading weapons.
If you live in britain, than there are lots of groups doing their own thing , in terms of dressing up, creating authentic weapons and recreating battles. I've never joined one, but I've talked to people who are members.
One guy I met was part of a quarter staff club. They did drills and semi-contact bouts. It looked pretty real and painfull.
Last year our local fair hosted a medieval troop who did hawking, and had mock bouts with real arms and armor. All the stuff was handmade by them. A great spectacle.
Last thing, for Daniel. The reasons western knights are vulnerable to longbows is because their horses were relatively poorly armored. So if you're a longbowman you shoot at the horse, not the knight. Its a bigger target anyway so most of your hits will be on the horse anyway. Once it is hit, it'll probably throw the rider or become uncontrollable, or fall. As Daniel says, full plate armor gave a large measure of protection to knights who could afford it, but its difficult to armor a horse to the same extent. First because its very expensive, second because you tire them out.
Ah yes...
Longbowman shoots horse, horse throws rider, rider is too damn heavy (encased in plate armor) to get up quickly...
Alas, rider falls victim to tickle-feathers and itching powder...
War is hell...
In all fairness, I believe accuracy was less of an issue for bowmen than RPGs make it seem. Arrows are deadly when fired _en masse_. The important part of a soldier's longbow training, if I recall correctly, was not how to shoot the bow accurately, but how to shoot it *far*. Obviously, it's a different case for hunting, which is why hunters have historically made some of the deadliest missile troops (e.g., the pinpoint accuracy of Crockett's Tennessee longrifle cadre at long range is often attributed to the fact that many of those riflemen grew up shooting squirrels for supper in the backwoods).
So, to redact Mo's assertion just a little, I'd say the archers did not so much target the horses over the riders as aim large volleys at the cavalry. The majority of the hits would be on horses, as he says, because they are the largest targets.
Cocytus. I accept your redaction with 2 provisos:
(1) Is redaction a real word ?
(2) If it is, then are you using it correctly ?
=)
To Mo:
First off, I didn't mean you should seek out a gunpowder recreation group, nor any of the amateur historical recreation societies. In my (local) experience, both types of groups are loaded with people who either take the whole subject *way* too seriously, or else not seriously at all, and very few of them have any academic credentials. I'm suggesting you look up actual experimental archaeology projects being run by local universities. They're run by people with a vested interest in getting meaningful results rather than playing around.
In massed formation, archers didn't shoot directly at anything. They shot high into the air for a massed rain of arrows on enemy troops. This limits the arrows to their terminal velocity in air, which isn't that great. The kind of surface barding used by most knights' horses was sufficient to protect against this kind of fire.
To Captain Assassin: the myth that armored knights on the battlefield could not mount, dismount, or get to their feet while in armor is just that, a myth.
An interesting tidbit on anachronistic weapons technology: recent evidence unearthed at Carthage strongly suggests that the Carthaginians were manufacturing steel in export quantities long before they were razed by the Romans.
Oh, and yes, "redact" is a word. And he's using it correctly.
I am chastened.
I repent and redact even.
To Daniel:
I did not say that armored knights on the battlefield could not mount, dismount, or get to their feet while in armor. I simply said that they could not do the aforementioned
...quickly.
"1. Darth Maul's double-edged lightsaber. Ridiculously cool, and in the hands of the god of swords, Ray Park, brilliant to watch. Probably impossible to use though. Every time you tried to do the cool spinning move you'd cut your legs off. Which, I reckon is what Darth Maul did in the end."
actually, quite possible to use. i use one thats 420 carbon steel with a white cord 14" grip in the middle, the blades are only 18 inches long thought, his were like 2-3 feet. basically his was a bo, and mine is a shorter jo. its surprisingly easy to use, once youre used to it, and incredibly hard to defend against. in the end darth maul got cut in half by obi-wan who force leaped out of that pit, and ended up behind him. he swung around and cut him in half before maul could react to the movement.
Most horses didn't wear significant barding until the age of gunpowder, except when being used for the joust.
Cool fantasy weapons...
I've always been partial to the Elizabethan Backsword. Can be used as a broadsword or as a fencing weapon.
Cloaks. A long cloak, with weights to give it some mass, can and has been used as a weapon both offensivly and defensivly. This was mostly during the renaisance when fencing came into vogue.
Double-decked crossbow, like the one in Ladyhawk... too cool...
Caltrops... for men or horses... sometimes poisoned... nasty to run into without boots.
Love the discussion people. Very informative.
"A genius is a talented person who does his homework." Thomas Edison
Here's what ya do: Get in to any random battle with Quistis in your party, and have your other two characters kill her. Yes, I mean kill her. Run away or win the battle. Out of battle, us a pheonix down on Quistis, but don't heal. The idea is to let her use limit break immediately. Go th the Island Closest to Hell, and use Quistis's "Degenerater" limit whenver you hit a random battle (you DO have it, right?). The high-level toughie will die instantly, giving all your characters several levels worth of EXP. Using this method, I maxed out all of my cahracter's levels in under an hour.
Tips for Ultimecia (yes, I slaughtered the spelling)? The easiest way is to get Squall's 'Lionheart' weapon (and limit break) and make sure to unlock the limit break ability. Junction 100 Hastes to Squall's speed (usually using Cerberus GF), and give him the "Auto-Haste" ability. This will crank his speed way up, his down time between turns will actually take less time than it will to select his attack. Make sure Squall so that he can use his limit every turn (by keeping his health at yellow, or by using the "Aura" spell), and U R teh win!
"Every society needs a cry like that, but only in a very few do they come out with the complete, unvarnished version, which is "Remember-The-Atrocity-Committed-Against-Us-Last-Time-That-Will-Excuse-The-Atrocity-That-We're-About-To-Commit-Today! Hurrah! And So On!"
-Terry Pratchett, in his novel "Thief of Time"
I'm kinda partial to the staff-weapons used in Stargate... okay- not really- I just couldn't think of anything really cool about any fantasy or most sci-fi weapons that I liked, I'm a stickler for practicality and realism. I'd prefer to fight with real tangible weapons from our own world in any fight- because at least we have a garuntee that they work and that some of us actually know how to use them. Theoretically a modern United States Infantryman (like myself) has more lethal fire power in his abilities than a large portion of a medieval European Army. The basic M-16 can kill a man at great distances, very accurately. BUT, the typical modern US soldier only carries 7 thirty round magazines and perhaps a grenade or two... I myself carried these weapons with the addition of a shotgun. So, what happens what one runs out of ammo? Some would argue that the modern soldier could easily run away or better yet, fight in close combat against the medeival warriors... THIS, my friends, is a misconception. We could run- in a vehicle... on foot, cavalry would ride us down. If we chose to fight in close melee- we would be simply butchered. The few US soldiers still issued a bayonet rarely know how to use them and hand-to-hand fighting is poorly thought of by modern forces as it is so infrequently used. No piece of modern equipment is designed to take a beating from a warhammer or pick and the ammount of armor used is not enough area protection agains anything else..... The point is that weapons and firepower only matter when they can actually be used to some effect. Sure- one modern guy could kill 300 medeival troops easily, but what about the other 43,000 men-at-arms behind them? Statistically, yes, our modern troops are better, but the fact is that no medival forces would be able to survive in today's battles and no modern army could live long in those days either.